Spins ????

[pmanton]

I'm kind of a self taught PA-22 driver. I rented one back in the 50's. Bought one and had a CFI buddy fly back with me when I picked it up. This was his first flight in a shortwing and my first in over 50 years.

My CFI budy feels it would spin rather easily and could be a handful as far as spin recovery goes. I'm not so sure. With the plane's benign stall characteristics I think you'd have to really be ham fisted to force it into a spin. By now I have perhaps 80 hours in the plane and in my opinion it is a forgiving easy to fly machine. The only thing that I've found to be wary of is the sink rate which if you keep some energy isn't a real worry.

What do you experienced Shortwingers have to say about spins? Will it spin readily? If one did enter a spin is recovery conventional--that is release back pressure and opposite rudder?

Thanks

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

[Steve Pierce]

I have spun a couple of Short Wings but it was very difficult to start. Took a very high nose up stall and hard rudder to start and then my clipper went over on her back and then spun. Neutral controls with opposite rudder stopped it.

[Bultaco Jim]

From everything I have heard/read, the old Pipers are going to be easier to get out of a spin than any of the swept-tail planes, because the swept-tail is blocked from the moving air by the wing. So you have to push the swept-tail further over (more nose-down) to make the rudder effective. ( unless you enter a spin the way Steve does it!) I'll take the shortwing over a (are you ready for this Hillbilly?) Cessna in this department anyday. I agree with Steve, it's very hard to spin.

[Hillbilly]

From everything I have heard/read, the old Pipers are going to be easier to get out of a spin than any of the swept-tail planes, because the swept-tail is blocked from the moving air by the wing. So you have to push the swept-tail further over (more nose-down) to make the rudder effective. ( unless you enter a spin the way Steve does it!) I'll take the shortwing over a (are you ready for this Hillbilly?) Cessna in this department anyday. I agree with Steve, it's very hard to spin.

$#@%^$@&!!! I read that post and said that word before I could stop myself! Now my mouth tastes like a handful of pennies and vomit. bleck!

[Frank Green]

I screwed up a wing over one time with a aft CG (what was I thinking, forgot about the guy in the back seat) As Steve said, it ain't easy to get into one, nose almost straight up, ALOT of rudder, went in fairly calm. Release back pressure, opposite rudder, I don't think I turned twice. Problem is when it stops you are pointed straight down and speed increases fast, Gently pulled her out. My 2 passengers wanted to know if we could do it again. Once was enough. BTW, spins are not approved in a 22, but not anything I would worry about, given enough altitude.

[deandayton]

My Colt manual says that spins are approved in Utility category (roughly 100 lbs under normal gross and nothing in the baggage area).

I have tried and couldn't get it to spin.

I can't speak for what is approved in a Tri-Pacer.

[JohnW]

These airplanes HAD to spin to get Certified under CAR3. The ShortWings spin NICE. Probably among the most fun spinning airplanes (Utility Category) that came off a Production Line (altho Cessna Drivers should understand that the Spam Can their instructor showed them one in doesn't know the meaning of the words "wind up"). These things are short span, an honest airfoil and don't resist corkscrewing around much, and they turn on the "rather quick end" of the scale. Yes, they DO point kinda straight down, compared to some. Frank, you musta sucked up a bump in the seat cushion that looked like a trailer hitch if you fell off a wingover and can say "I don't think it turned twice". I start to get a little Antsy after a dozen or more turns in a ShortWing -mainly because of the rotation speed- and oh yeah... you want to get the throttle out as soon as it has seriously gone over. You really don't need it again until the airspeed has starting winding CCW again.

Now, playing around with "almost straight up" as a stall entry is liable to get someone into serious trouble in a ShortWing. These airplanes WILL do a wingover all their own in that kind of stall entry, and depending on your control inputs (or a wayward gust input, I suppose) they will spin inverted. This is one place you do NOT want to be in a ShortWing Piper. Maybe everyone's Hero (Clyde Smith JR) has some stories about his Old Man (Clyde Smith, the Piper Test Pilot/Wing Tearer-Offer) hitting the silk over the Alleghenies, but I don't recommend that kind of fun. TRIM your ShortWing into slow decel instead of hand-flying it with cruise trim and it will stall, but I also question what some people "expect". People that "learned to drive" in a Cessna want to see a "whoopsie-doodle" when they stall...just seems like a little Engineered-in DRAMA, to me. But then, "feeling a stall" is a bit of an oxymoron in a Cessna anyway so you HAVE TO be able to see something dramatic! The ShortWing has a very uneventful stall, but when it bobs down once plant the yoke (or stick, if yer flying a FUN airplane) on your breastbone (or wherever it is your stick lands when it is ALL THE WAY back. Danger, Will Robinson! Try this move at least ONCE on the ground with the engine not running just to make sure you have clearance, Clarence), and then when it bobs back up once, put the boot to 'er before she nuzzles down the second time and... over She goes! DON'T counter-control and stop it!!! Let her go over! Once it really does turn over (and they DO), give it enough time with the yoke full back to let fly with a decent "Yahhhhh-HOOO!" and by then ya now know why they call 'em "spins" rather than "a twisty". Watch the road start winding up (you'll get a GOOD LOOK out the windshield, you don't have to look around to find it). Oh, and not only should you adhere to the AFM about Utility Ops, make sure there isn't anything more stout than a Sectional lying around in the airplane. PA-22 tow bars hurt. Also, I personally think the nosewheel on the -22 makes it look "down" straighter than the taildragger in the spin (I think). Finally, don't do anything STUPID like tear the wings off. Recovery is "by-the-book" and absolutely straightforward. Oh while we're on "Absolutely": Do not try this without Adult Supervision unless you know all about it from previous personal experience. They DO build up speed straight down... ONCE YOU STOP THE SPIN. In a REAL spin, the airplane is stalled all the time it is "not flying" and these Dudes are pretty "dirty" airplanes. They'll spin more than you'll want to. If your speed is building up while the airplane is "turning", you are SPIRALLING, not spinning. The biggest problem with people thinking these airplanes will "not stall" is that the Operator isn't holding the airplane "stalled". Virtually ANYTHING less than "full back" and they will at least TRY to start flying again. Once the spin is FULLY FORMED, if you take both feet off the rudders, it will KEEP spinning until you let the yoke forward. (at which time you are now officially "recovering", so don't try to get "fancy" and do something "secondary"). Once you get a few under your belt and are getting reasonably sure about the outcome, try the age-old advice about "letting go of everything", and report back here (heehee...the airplane will show you how to "do it RIGHT"). This is all slightly more fun to do than watching You-Tube flics of Citabrias doin' it. But if you like Acrobatics, take some advice... get a Pitts.

Dean, its 150 pounds difference (1500 v. 1650) no baggage AND the right tank is supposed to be empty (they apparently never took the time to certify the Colt with the "Aux Tank" installed and filled. Besides, it gets pretty hard to stay under 1500 pounds with an Instructor AND parachutes on board). The reason you can't make it spin is because it won't spin unless it is stalled. I am fully aware of "my Milstool won't stall" but have only seen that to be true twice. Both times the controls were rigged incorrectly and the elevator did not have specified Up-travel. Now, before everybody starts re-rigging, let me say again: TRIM into slow decel, don't hand-fly it from cruise trim settings. I have NEVER see one correctly rigged that had to be "yanked" into the stall. But you are fighting the AOA when the stab is trimmed "down". And again, you have to HOLD THE STALL with full back elevator at "max slow" or it will "recover". And BTW... PA-22s with conventional gear mods are NOT certified in the Utility Category (unless someone has recently changed that).

[Stephen]

JW, reading your blurb on spins is almost as much fun as doing one, at least one in a Cessna.

[Steve Pierce]

Once you get a few under your belt and are getting reasonably sure about the outcome, try the age-old advice about "letting go of everything", and report back here (heehee...the airplane will show you how to "do it RIGHT").

That is how I did my first one in the Clipper with a couple of hours under my belt. Scared me so bad I let go expecting my buddy to take it and she got herself out. I think I had to add a little rudder.

I have spun a couple of Short Wings but it was very difficult to start. Took a very high nose up stall and hard rudder to start and then my clipper went over on her back and then spun. Neutral controls with opposite rudder stopped it.

I thought it was the ground that stopped it! I think you said it went down like a "yard dart". Maybe that was another Clipper. Ouch!