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Re: Rigging
Guys, thank you for all the input. I like learning as much as I can about these planes so I really appreciate ALL the information that was provided.
Andrew
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Re: Rigging
The AOI of the ShortWings is ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root.
Hi John
I am always curious about angles on these pipers. I was wondering if you could show me how and where you arrived at "ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root". I do not have the drawings but I would be interested in the height of the wing attach fittings off the HRL. Also you mention shortwings. Do you have any drawings or knowledge of the vagabond. I had heard that the AOI was different (I have not seen these drawings either). If this is too much to ask---I certainly understand.
Thanks
Mark
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Re: Rigging
Mark. I sense the "free end of a rope. tied with a peculiar knot, being offered me". I have Piper Drawings. I also know that Piper referenced the bottom edge of the wing root as being at an angle of incidence (note lack off capitalization) of zero degrees with the airplane leveled, but while "out of context" I admit I SAID: "The AOI of the ShortWings is ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root." I have to admit that the alphabet soup contraction doesn't clearly indicate the capitalization, but allow me to re-state that sentence as: "The Angle Of Incidence" of the ShortWings is ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root. I'm not going to "provide you" with a bibliography for my Angle Of Incidence statement, though. I'm going to make you WORK to disprove that (and...Good Luck to you!). Remember...the AOI of the wing, aerodynamically- is measured along the CHORD of the wing, to the HRL; NOT to the bottom edge of the butt rib as installed on an assembled aircraft (and the inherent "unless otherwise noted" need not be stated, eh?). The Drawing(s) that give the general information referenced above (which Piper titled "Complete Airplane" for each of the ShortWing models) lists that same angle of incidence (note lack of capitalization, AGAIN) of the assembled wing on the airplane taken at the "root" and points an arrow at the bottom edge of the wing itself. Both the Vagabond models are the same on their respective drawings (hence, the Angle Of Incidence IS the same, PROVIDED the wing root fittings are mounted the same! Oh, Dear...MORE "homework"!). The text on that Drawing (for each model) ALSO states in Note 5(3): "ADJUST REAR STRUTS TO OBTAIN 2 1/2 [degrees] NEGATIVE INCIDENCE OF WING AT OUTBOARD AILERON RIB" [emphasis mine, and may I call "unless otherwise noted" one more time?]. This 2 1/2 degrees AT THAT LOCATION will set you up at the "proper" angle of iIncidence OF THAT RIB, and therefore relates to the Secret Squirrel Angle Of Incidence relative to the Horizontal Reference Line AT THAT WING STATION. You just can't "mix metaphors" when you talk tech.
I could certainly look up for, and provide you with, the measurements of the wing hinge fittings (or Post the whole Drawing), but...I question where your actual interest lies, if you don't already HAVE the Drawings, yourself (much less your "never having seen them")? That -coupled with your request for where my "data comes from"- strikes me as, uhh... a "peculiar" request under those circumstances. Pardon my paranoia. Do you NEED this info enough to put me through the "exercise" of providing it? I gladly will, if it's OTHER THAN your just wanting to see if I have it! I have.
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Re: Rigging
I was just curious as to the difference between the 12 vs 18 vs pacer vs vagabond as to the front and rear spar attach differential off the HRL. I have never seen a one degree AOI ever mentioned-- but no matter. I was really very curious about the vagabond as a friend in Montana swears it has the same AOI of an 18. He has the drawings but has not got around to digging them up. I am equally curious about the J5a--b--c as I also have some friends that insist the J5a had the 18 AOI. But again this is of no matter here. I will satisfy my curiosity elsewhere. This has already been an extremely unpleasant experience and I am very sorry I asked.
Mark
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Administrator
Re: Rigging
Mark, I will send you a copy of the drawings. I am curious now myself, especially after seeing how ell the Vag flies on 65hp. What is the temp at Big Lake this weekend? Been cold here but gonna be 70 on Sunday.
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Re: Rigging
Hey Mark. Hope you'll stick around on the site. Mostly :? good and well intentioned folks here. Would LOVE to see some discussion get spun up on the "theoretical" benefits of a thrustline modification to Pacers/Tri-Pacers/Clippers/Vagabonds.
Steve, don't know about Big Lake but Chugiak is about 3 deg F right now. It went and decided to be cold again. I do think parts of Texas were colder than Alaska last week. I love it when that happens.
Paul
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Re: Rigging
Originally Posted by
AkPA/18
IThis has already been an extremely unpleasant experience and I am very sorry I asked.
Mark
hope you come back also mark..... ****** john W, that is the thrustline STC holder guy you just lectured away..... he just wanted to ask and compare.... he has brought alot to the cub world in last 10 years..... hope he has a thick skin.....
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Administrator
Re: Rigging
Mark has taught me a ton about angles and rigging. I'll get Mark the drawings and this should turn into an interesting discussion. I am anxious to see what the angle of incidence of the Vagabond. For those that don't know what we are referring to it is the incidence of the wing to the fuselage. The Super Cub has a different angle than the PA12. The SC is slower in cruise but better at slow flight than the 12. I have a picture of the two flying side by side and the PA12 has the tail a lot lower than the SC. Should be interesting to compare the Short Wings.
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Re: Rigging
Originally Posted by
JohnW
Mark. I sense the "free end of a rope. tied with a peculiar knot, being offered me". I have Piper Drawings. I also know that Piper referenced the bottom edge of the wing root as being at an angle of incidence (note lack off capitalization) of zero degrees with the airplane leveled, but while "out of context" I admit I SAID: "The AOI of the ShortWings is ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root." I have to admit that the alphabet soup contraction doesn't clearly indicate the capitalization, but allow me to re-state that sentence as: "The Angle Of Incidence" of the ShortWings is ONE DEGREE [positive] at the root. I'm not going to "provide you" with a bibliography for my Angle Of Incidence statement, though. I'm going to make you WORK to disprove that (and...Good Luck to you!). Remember...the AOI of the wing, aerodynamically- is measured along the CHORD of the wing, to the HRL; NOT to the bottom edge of the butt rib as installed on an assembled aircraft (and the inherent "unless otherwise noted" need not be stated, eh?). The Drawing(s) that give the general information referenced above (which Piper titled "Complete Airplane" for each of the ShortWing models) lists that same angle of incidence (note lack of capitalization, AGAIN) of the assembled wing on the airplane taken at the "root" and points an arrow at the bottom edge of the wing itself. Both the Vagabond models are the same on their respective drawings (hence, the Angle Of Incidence IS the same, PROVIDED the wing root fittings are mounted the same! Oh, Dear...MORE "homework"!). The text on that Drawing (for each model) ALSO states in Note 5(3): "ADJUST REAR STRUTS TO OBTAIN 2 1/2 [degrees] NEGATIVE INCIDENCE OF WING AT OUTBOARD AILERON RIB" [emphasis mine, and may I call "unless otherwise noted" one more time?]. This 2 1/2 degrees AT THAT LOCATION will set you up at the "proper" angle of iIncidence OF THAT RIB, and therefore relates to the Secret Squirrel Angle Of Incidence relative to the Horizontal Reference Line AT THAT WING STATION. You just can't "mix metaphors" when you talk tech.
I could certainly look up for, and provide you with, the measurements of the wing hinge fittings (or Post the whole Drawing), but...I question where your actual interest lies, if you don't already HAVE the Drawings, yourself (much less your "never having seen them")? That -coupled with your request for where my "data comes from"- strikes me as, uhh... a "peculiar" request under those circumstances. Pardon my paranoia. Do you NEED this info enough to put me through the "exercise" of providing it? I gladly will, if it's OTHER THAN your just wanting to see if I have it! I have.
John
Sounds a lot like a statment from one our lustrous leaders "DEPENDS ON WHAT THE MEANING OF "IS" IS. lol
see ya
Gene
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Re: Rigging
????? Lookit, some guys are looking for malice where there isn't any (and since the pointing finger points both ways... I might actually be becoming -or have already become- one of those). Mark, I'm VERY sorry if you took what I said as "lecturing", or "driving you away". But taking it that way is on you. I know how I meant it, and sorry for handing you an "extremely unpleasant experience". I mean that, and it will not happen again.
Mike, can you not see that calling me "little" is simply "as bad, or worse" than what you are blaming ME of. It speaks more lowly of you, than me (and...I'm NOT offended by what amounts to your opinion of me). I'm aware of Mark's accomplishments, and some of yours. I "pay attention" to this stuff". I have never been a "glory seeker" and prefer to keep my resume to myself. That doesn't mean I "have no accomplishments of my own", and you are presumptuous to think you are qualified to ATTEMPT to insult me. BE that as it may. It's all "meaningless" anyway (you are dismissed).
Steve, I apologize to YOU for this, as well.
Merry Christmas, boys.
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