Slow flight speed for training and checkride

[Tripod]

Not sure if I should start a different thread since I am about to ask a new question, but what speeds do people use for pattern, approach, and landing (short final)? Especially for short-field?

Troy

Hi Troy,

I also own the O-290D2 version. Here's my usual technique in the traffic pattern. When abeam the numbers, carb heat ON and throttle to 1500 RPM. Hold the nose level until 80 indicated then allow nose to drop enough to hold 80 at 1500 RPM. Trim off elevator pressure. Begin base turn when 45 degrees from end of runway. If planning to use flaps, apply first notch (adjust trim again, if necessary). As I roll out on final I make small adjustments in RPM and pitch to maintain desired airspeed and glide angle while aiming for the touch-down zone. At this point, 75 MPH works good for me if winds are not gusty. On a non-gusty day I'll allow the airplane to slow slightly to 70 as I pass over the end of the runway. When about 5 feet off the runway I'll begin to slowly reduce the remaining little bit of power and smoothly begin a flare for landing.

And here's something I don't think you asked about, but can be a lot of fun. Short approaches. I fly my downwind a little closer in and begin slowing down a little earlier so by the time I'm abeam the numbers I'm doing 80 MPH. At that position I pull on carb heat and smoothly pull the power to idle. Let the nose fall enough to maintain 80 MPH and trim it out. Next, begin the turn to base, all the while judging your glide angle (it will be relatively steep compared to the 1500 RPM approach). Make adjustments to the turn radius to base and final to allow enough altitude to make the runway touch down zone. If you end up a little high on final you can do a slip, which is also great fun (no slips allowed with flaps extended, however). Just don't let the airplane get slow. You'll need the steam (airspeed) for the round-out and flair.

If you haven't practiced short approaches yet, talk to your instructor. I believe it is a great way to learn even more about your airplane and gain even more skill. As you gain practice you should eventually be able to set your airplane down in the touch down zone without ever increasing power of idle (but keep your hand on the throttle n case you need it). You'll learn to arrive at the touch down point you selected with the correct amount of airspeed for for the flair. I believe this type practice is a great confidence builder and might come handy someday if your engine chuffs.

-dave

[Troy Hamon]

If you end up a little high on final you can do a slip, which is also great fun (no slips allowed with flaps extended, however).

-dave

Hi Dave, we have practiced power-off approaches, which were flown without flaps, and we've done slips, which were also done without flaps. My three pages worth of AFM (or whatever it was called back then) don't say anything about slips. What information do you use to ascertain that slips should be done only without flaps?

I look forward to trying some of your techniques. My general approach has been similar to yours, except I've been bringing on flaps during the initial descent on downwind and second notch on base.

Troy

[JohnW]

The ShortWing (and Longwing) Pipers with this type of wing and flap design are NOT "placarded against slipping with flaps extended". I am here to tell you that ALL the ShortWing Pipers will slip 100% with flaps up, partially, or FULL DOWN and will NOT "blank the elevators" (contrary to the Spam Can "competition"), and you can rack 'em over with the ailerons AND the rudders right against the stops and there is NO RELUCTANCE for the airplane to ever even TRY to be the least bit "reluctant" to "break the slip" when you want to straighten it out. Remember that Vfe means you do NOT have the flaps down AT ALL when the airspeed is above Vfe. You don't try to slip full sideways "at cruise", EVER, or you MAY "have a flap depart the aircraft".

It's one of the SUPERIOR HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS of these airplanes. Slips were a WAY OF LIFE back in the day these airplanes were designed (and only your "lackingly designed" airplanes had issues). That the Pacer had flaps at all was more of an "idea" that while a slightly shallower deck angle might allow the [Standard FAA, 5'7" average height] Pilot to "see a little better over the panel glareshield"...ShortWings really do not REQUIRE flaps for either Takeoff OR Landing. Flaps were also becoming something of "the vogue", and the Piper Advertising and Sales Departments pushed HARD for the addition of the "added feature" of wing flaps. The earliest of low serial number Pacers, in fact, were "standard" WITHOUT wing flaps, but they soon became the "majority", and then "the Rule". To the best of my knowledge, ALL the Tripes had flaps. Recall also, please, that the LAST VERSION of the PA-22 -the Colt- did NOT have flaps at all, Standard OR Optional.

Flaps ARE admittedly of "some value" when properly deployed, for a noticeably shortened "Soft Field Takeoff"; they DO "steepen the descent" somewhat as well as [marginally] reduce the stalling speed, "dirty"; they give the Pilot something of the "pleasure of flying a modern aircraft", with "modern appurtenances". But...even at just under 400 pounds MORE WEIGHT in the later TriPacers that had flaps, compared to a Clipper (Clippers had NO FLAPS!), I believe the Clipper is still easier to land SHORTER than a full-flapped TriPacer (with or without the nosewheel having been "returned to the correct end").

Slip away, Me Hearties. Just DON'T raise the nose when you slip (you can even LOWER IT a little, if you like, because the "side of the fuselage" that is presented in the slip has more area -AND DRAG- than those "barn doors" do)...and DO NOT forget to "square up" to the centerline at touchdown! It is BAD LUCK to LAND pointed off "sideways", and you WILL NOT like it! There is NO aerodynamic blanking of the empennage with THIS TYPE of flap. If the airplane was placarded AGAINST slips TO ANY EXTENT (degree)...it would be in the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM). And...it is NOT. The deflection angles of both the flaps AND the rudder is "set" per the design requirements of the time (CAR3) so that full control is available for slipping. Don't look for where it is "allowed"...look for it ONLY to be mentioned if the design does NOT meet all the requirements (ahem...like "Cessners"), and it is therefore prohibited.

[Troy Hamon]

Thanks JohnW, I appreciate you taking the time to help out some of us newbies. I do find the flaps interesting on our PA-22. With only a 4 mph difference in stall speed, it seems they would have pretty limited utility. But the difference feels pretty significant, primarily the extreme nose-high attitude without flaps. I'm 6'4" and I can barely see over the nose landing with one notch of flaps. Which I don't do anymore, but my first instructor had me try some landings that way to simplify my learning curve on the first few flights. Actually, I suspect it wasn't that dramatic, but that's how I remember it. I have to pull the nose up pretty high to get it to fly at 80 mph without flaps as well. Anyway, I'm happy to have the flaps, despite the limited performance improvement.

Troy

[Troy Hamon]

Been out flying a few times. Stall break seems to hit at 55 with just me in the bird, likely true airspeed closer to 45 given the 300+lbs of useful load that is left over. Flying around at 65 IAS is pretty mushy and fun. The nose of the airplane is stuck up like the bow of an overloaded boat trying to get on step.

[Student Pilot]

Interesting the older flight manuals say carb heat on and throttle off and land. I nearly always do that, in older machines that was standard practice. You get a steeper approach and if you want it even steeper sideslip or whatever you folks over there call it.

[Student Pilot]

Just read a later owners manual (150/160 TriPacer) and it says just throttle off and land, carb heat only if needed. Trim for 65 to 70 knot glide and land.

[Troy Hamon]

I have noticed that I am better at shortfield when I bring it in with a pretty steep approach. Then I use power to arrest the sink rate, but it doesn't do much floating. Last night we were doing some night flight and I was bringing it in at 1500 rpm to try and keep it on glide slope instead of starting way high. When I get down near the runway, I find that it starts to float quite a bit and I really have to actively manage the glide with throttle changes. I was doing a bit better at the end, but I flew our last two patterns a little different, started higher on the glide slope for the final descent, and the airplane just lands itself. Probably I do just as much adjustment, but it seems like the airplane is easier to direct with the steeper, less-power approach.

[Student Pilot]

If your floating too long then your going to fast, slow up more on short final.

[Troy Hamon]

Just a note to report back. I've been happily dragging the PA-22 through the air at IAS between 60-65 since getting input on the board. That puts me between 50-55 based on my TAS, keep in mind this is with me and 1/2 fuel, probably going to be a bit faster with my instructor or a check pilot on board.