Starting engine without primer

[Lownslow]

Ditto on getting the primer installed. If your carb is in good working order, which includes the plunger-style accelerator pump .....until you get a primer, On a "standard" day, what works very good is:
Fuel on - right or left
Mixture full rich
pump 1/4 throttle only and reduce throttle to just off of idle
If all is in good working order she will crank right over. This has worked consistently for all o-320's

If colder tha a 'standard" day, you will need more accelerator pump than that, but be careful not to over-do it.

Lou S.

[crazyivan]

Same problem I had when I first bought mine. Now I have no problem starting within the first 3 or 4 blades with the technique below.

I do not use the primer. One pump is enough to flood it out for 20 minutes. I'd prefer to not have a primer at all. Before you go through the pain and money of installing a primer, try this technique.

- Right before I start the engine I pump the throttle twice - closed to full to closed to full to closed. That's enough even on a cold day for the accelerator to prime the engine.
- I pull the prop through 6 to 10 blades (3 to 5 full revolutions) but I triple check the mags are off first.
- Battery switch on, mags on, crack the throttle just a little bit (about 1/8 to 1/4"), press the starter. At lightoff I'm looking for about 1000rpm. I don't pull it less than 1000rpm for about 10 seconds or it will die.
- Generally speaking a warm engine doesn't need a prime, but I'll put in one pump of the throttle if she's sitting for more than 15 min in cold weather.

[JohnW]

Dave, I HAVE seen your flooding complaint before. Someone had put simple "threaded adapters" into the cylinder tappings instead of those darned old expensive Lycoming p/n nozzles (male IP to compression, "full flow" fittings). What a difference correctly sized "atomization nozzles" make when compared to "wide open fittings". Kinda spreads the charge out over ALL the nozzles, too (instead of all the fuel going through the path of least resistance). Could very well be what's in yours (?). Does your primer work "loose as a goose" on the prime stroke, or do you have to LEAN ON IT to "shove it home" when it actually has fuel in it?

SOMETHING is not right. Doesn't have one of those eight inch long, inch and a half around R-680 surplus TANK ENGINE primers, does it? :=)

[pa20]

Congratulations on joining the ranks of Shortwing owners. As we all know, they are the best kept secret with wings! You have gotten some really good information here, and I wanted to add my .02 on the points currently under discussion, and then just to muddy the waters a little, throw out another idea entirely.
For all the reasons stated here, a primer is a very beneficial piece of equipment to have. The fuel is metered and atomized very close to the intake port, whereas pumping the throttle shoots the stream straight up, and we all know about "what goes up......" Additionally, on a cold day the fuel will not vaporize and you will not get a fuel/air mixture suitable for combustion. My RV-6 does not have a primer (O-360), and trying to get it started during a cold winter in Toledo was a bear.
There is another aspect to your possible starting troubles that should be raised. What is the condition of your magnetos? My PA-20 starts just fine with accelerator pump fuel only on all but the coldest days. One reason is that my mags are in good shape with strong coils, and the timing parts serviceable and set to specs. Also, are your spark plugs cleaned and gapped properly?
Good luck, and please keep the group posted on what you find out.

[pacerman]

I disagree that all shortwings had primers. My PA-17 has the original dash, original engine, and there is no place on the dash for a primer. No empty hole. Nothing. With a cold engine and the throttle closed, mags off of course, I pull it through about 10 blades. Mags on, it starts on the next pull or the one after. Hot. you don't need to do anything but leave the throttle closed and turn on the mags. Leaving the throttle closed sucks the fuel only through the idle circuit of the carb and there's much less chance of flooding the engine. If an engine is tuned to idle smoothly on the idle circuit, it will start on the idle circuit. Joe

[BrettL]

I disagree that all shortwings had primers. My PA-17 has the original dash, original engine, and there is no place on the dash for a primer. No empty hole. Nothing. With a cold engine and the throttle closed, mags off of course, I pull it through about 10 blades. Mags on, it starts on the next pull or the one after. Hot. you don't need to do anything but leave the throttle closed and turn on the mags. Leaving the throttle closed sucks the fuel only through the idle circuit of the carb and there's much less chance of flooding the engine. If an engine is tuned to idle smoothly on the idle circuit, it will start on the idle circuit. Joe

Interesting. What serial number is your 17?

The only thing Piper seemed to be consistent on was being inconsistent.

Would love to see some pictures of your PA-17 and it's panel.

[JohnW]

Sorry. You are mistaken (although the reason you are may not be attributed to "you"). The engine installation drawing for the Continental engine on the PA-17 shows both a detail view of the primer feed line on top of the gascolator, and it also shows the "fuel system installation" detail with the primer clearly to be seen, right where you would expect it be. This would be Piper Drawing number 11828 (and mine wasn't purchased by the BP Fund...mine came directly to me from Piper Aircraft Corporation, so there is NO CREDIT to a dead organization).

You can never tell by "looking at" a sixty year old airplane "what is, or isn't, EXACTLY as the Factory built it". There have been thousands of very talented individuals over the last six decades that could/can make very beautiful "fabricated parts" that even another equally talented individual would say looked "just like Piper would have made it". Why, back in 1952, a "blank" instrument panel purchased FROM PIPER would have probably "set you back" all of around a dollar-eleven.

Your Vagabond came from Piper with a primer, and aside from the Official Piper Drawing dated 5-6-48 (and another one for the Instrument Panel layout -Dwg 11618 dated 12-22-47), there is no way either of us can prove differently... that it didn't. Neither drawing says "(OPT.)" in ref to this item. The one thing I can actually claim -that ISN'T possible for you to refute- is that the Type Certificate that CAA/FAA has on file included these two Drawings that said Piper p/n 72401 Primer was required to be there at time of certification in order to comply with its [Approved] Type Certificate. Oh...I guess there is another thing you can't refute...your airplane would start easier if you reinstalled the primer that somebody left out. Sadly, there has always been a "faction" of cheap-ass people that would LEAVE OUT a primer rather than spend "their own money" to replace one. This, I direct at [too many] people that "put together airplanes" for the sole purpose of SELLING THEM to people that don't "know any better" (this shoe is not meant to fit any one individual specifically!) and rather than spend "their money" to make something 100% "right", they leave that up to somebody else. I hate that, WHENEVER I see it.

Mannnn, Joe. You, too, should reinstall the primer that belongs there.



[Just so's there is no question whatsoever...there was not a single whiff of animosity in this reply. So, Joe, don't get mad, please? I'm not slamming -or flaming- you, and you ain't the only one that has been fooled by "great workmanship", or the replacement of original parts with factory supplied "blank replacements". The proof is in the Production Drawings.]

[BrettL]

Joe,

Where the primer should be, there should also be a steel tab behind the instrument panel that serves as a reinforcing plate for mounting the primer. If you can get a good look in behind the instrument panel with a light and mirror you may find this tab shows evidence of a primer previously being installed, or you might find evidence that there once was a tab there and its been cut off. The tab would be welded to the top of the round tube that runs along the bottom of the instrument panel, and would lie flat against the back of the instrument panel itself. It would be located approximately 5 inches to the right of the center line of the instrument panel.

At this point I'm not 100% convinced that Piper built every airplane in strict accordance with their drawings, so I'm not going to say that your airplane definitely came from the factory with a primer, but I highly suspect that it did. I'd still like to know what serial number your PA-17 is.

Brett

[N4567A]

Hmmm, now I'm wondering. The primer in my PA15 slides in easy as pie, the one in the TriPacer was more the lean real hard on it, maybe it'll move type. Now the Vag is a one or two blade starter, so I guess if it ain't broke...

The starting routine is after preflight, out of the hanger, hitch the tail end to the car, 3 strokes of primer, switches off, go up front and spin the prop 4-5 times, switch on left, throttle cracked, flip prop and off she goes, switch to both. That's when cold, when warm it just fires right off.
The little Lycoming doesn't have much more than a hat full of power, but very smooth, easy starting, easy on fuel. Speed is no big deal, as I'm at my destination about 400' into the takeoff run.

Now, if the primer slides in so easy, does that indicate the wrong piece of hardware ? If the wrong piece of hardware wouldn't it be harder to start ?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Rodg

[Lownslow]

You don't have to us the primer to start an engine when certain conditions are in place that allow your engine to get the right mixture available for starting. They are usually NEVER used down in south Texas, where we get one to two days at freezing temperatures (on average) per year. In fact, their use is avoided because they are subject to misoperation, and they do have components that wear out.

I completely repaired the front end of a Cherokee, firewall foreward, due to an engine fire resulting from an inexperienced pilot giving his engine three squirts of the primer with a warm engine and on a hot day 100 OAT (I think that there had to be a few strokes of the throttle in there too), after the engine died (during takeoff roll), and finding the fuel valve in the off position. Talk about a bad day. But somehow Someone upstairs was looking out for this poor soul. He was given an opportunity to learn from his mistakes. I believe he has quit flying since then. Good thing for us.

I think the point has been made that the Pipers come with a primer. You will likely need it for extreme cold weather. But if you don't use it, that can be OK too. It is good to ask questions, like in this forum to see if some of our practices are are consistent with good practices. The other point to be made is that if yours doesn't have a primer, then for your airplane to be licensed or "annualed", all the components should be there or have the doumentation for removal - most likely a logbook entry to cover a minor alteration. This is another one of those that could be extensively discussed for classification as a "major alteration", requiring approval and form 337. Most likely most IA's might not even look to see if it is there or not and manyannuals have just been completed and signed off (technically not right).

Lou S.