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Thread: Pa22s ?

  1. #1
    pistoncan's Avatar
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    Default Pa22s ?

    Can anyone enlighten me about a PA22S? I ran across a reference to a 3 seat? light cabin? Just wondered what it was

  2. #2
    Clayton Harper's Avatar
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    Sea Plane, I think.

  3. #3
    dplunkt's Avatar
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    Yes, definately the seaplane designation. I think because of the added weight of the floats it has considered a three person capable aircraft. Although I don't know if any mod was made to the back seat. With me in the plane it's only a three person seaplane or not. i thought it would kinda neat to have a single seat in the back and a larger cargo area. I only carry my two kinds as it is.

    Dan

  4. #4

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    Yes, when the floats -that are specified on the Type Certificate Data Sheets- are installed, the TCDS considers the airplane to be a THREE Place Cabin Sea Monoplane (3PCSM). However, those serial numbers in the Eligibility bracket may become 4PLCM (four place cabin LAND monoplane), as well, when on "wheels". Now, technically, when you install or reinstall floats (or wheels) , you are required to record that maintenance action in the permanent aircraft records... so technically you are at the same time "converting" the airplane from one MODEL to another IAW the TCDS (which only requires a logbook entry). Converting an airplane from one model to another USUALLY would require much more "certification business" than this specific example... but since both "type" airplanes (landplane, seaplane) are listed (s/n), there is only required a simple logbook entry stating the "model change". In the Real World, you will often find such airplanes moving "back and forth" between 3 place seaplanes and four place landplanes without any such "specific notation" regarding the "model change". But it is still "considered to have been said".

    This classifies as a "gray area" (again, IN THE REAL WORLD as opposed to "what SHOULD BE DONE") and it would be somewhat difficult for an FAA Inspector to take certificate action against a properly rated Pilot flying a "by-the-book" certificated "seaplane", and make it stick. The "saving grace" in this technicality it that (although such a "model change" should be recorded in the permanent records) the airplane conforms to it's Type Certificate. Some will have to admit...English is a funny language.

    What you CAN'T "get grace" on is trying to load the airplane, on floats, to the "wheels" Type Certificate! Loading a wheels-equipped PA-22 to the PA-22S limits are still within the flight envelope for loading for the -22 and the fourth Warm Body is allowed. But need I say again...NOT the other way 'round(?)! Lastly, there is no alteration to the [original wheel plane configuration] as far as the rear seat is concerned... These airplanes originally had ONE seat belt long enough to restrain TWO PEOPLE side-by-side in the rear seat. When the airplane is flown as an "S" model, that same long seat belt restrains the ONLY REAR SEAT PASSENGER allowed by the TCDS. Clear as Mudd, right?

    Just for the record, there IS a small "physical change requirement" to certain of these airplanes that CAN BE "S" models! The TCDS specifically makes reference to the Piper Drawing that details the requirements for installing floats on those airplanes. Later serial numbers eligible had the "additional tubing" installed AT THE FACTORY and were incorporated as a "model improvement". The Production Drawings reflect this change for those later models, and were added to the Master List that makes up the "package" that defined how each airplane serial number group was built (speaks to "definition of what was accepted when the TCDS was Approved and the Production Certificate was issued. Note also that the engine cowls were different.
    Last edited by JohnW; 08-29-2011 at 06:56 PM.

  5. #5

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    Further to John's post:
    The -S models have a different static RPM requirement as well. It's fairly common to swap the prop when doing a wheels to floats change over.

    -Grant

  6. #6
    Throttle Pusher's Avatar
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    How and why was the engine cowls different?

  7. #7

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    Default Pa-20s

    My PA-20 came from the factory as a PA-20S. The side cowls have gills on them to help with engine cooling. It is still a 4 place acft but then again it is a late serial number. In the hot weather the gills do improve on cooling, but here in the desert I have never had it on floats. Pete

  8. #8

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    Yep, Petez is correct. The "gills" are the same p/n "side scoops" that mid-70's SuperCubs used on their cowls. They get more air into the cowl, while reducing the amount or "rail splash" from entering, as well. Also, the seaplane top cowls have a pair of scoops on the top cowl (like the early PA-20 inlets). These are not quite so "efficient" (being in the relative "quiet spot" in front of the windshield) but again, keep the water out. There is also one addition cross-tube in the airframe. The referenced required Piper Drawings on the TCDS detail the differences.

    All of which make it no less difficult to "amass" all the required piece/parts to make the initial installation IAW the TCDS... the easiest way to install floats the "first time" (lots of people have this idea on their "Wish List") is to go with a Field Approval. I'm thinking there were even a couple of STCs floating around (yuk, yuk!), but they are harder yet to come by nowadays.

    I guess I'll take the opportunity to state the obvious: There really isn't much difference between the PA-22-xxx model and the PA-22S model when it comes right down to it. The salient difference is that the loading IS DIFFERENT, and when doing floats per the TCDS changeover, the airplane becomes a THREE PLACE instead of a FOUR.
    Last edited by JohnW; 08-30-2011 at 08:12 AM.

  9. #9
    Frank Green's Avatar
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    John you got me curious. Our 20 at one time had floats on it so I opened log book #1 for a look. "7/11/51 Removed landing gear & tail wheel assy. & installed Edo 88-1650 floats per for 337 this date". The 337 says the same plus "IAW Edo drawing # 05525 and installed fuselage reinforcement per Piper drawing 12480". That's it. Doesn't mention the the cowl vents but it still has them. It does mention the prop change to a Sensenich M76AM-2. I think it has a larger oil cooler also. In 57 a 337 was written for a long list of other work done "by persons unknown". I think he gets around alot.

    Revised: Found the oil cooler and the vents as a log book entry in the engine log book.
    -Super Stub-

  10. #10
    Throttle Pusher's Avatar
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    Doesn't mention the the cowl vents but it still has them.
    My temps are alittle more than I'd like, could you post a picture of the additional vents on your bird?

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