Wheel Landings

[redbarron55]

An airplane rotates about the CG in the air and about the axle on the ground.
When you have the aircraft near the ground (inches) when you are near the ground and ease the aircraft nose down the aircraft starts to rotate about the CG and when the wheels touch it continues to rotate about the wheel axles (the gear compresses as the weight is added to the mix).
The mental picture use is as stated to "roll up on the gear". The slower the speed the lower the tail and the more you "roll up". This rolling up to slightly nose down is what loads the gear, prevents the dreaded bounce , and goves the added control on the ground.
You can touch down slightly faster without float, load the gear, and control the aircraft better.
Of course you need to learn how to and when to put the tail down and transition to three point operation.
Now is when the debate would normally start.

[Rollie]

Sounds like its worth trying. My plane, below 60mph the tail wheel is lower than the mains so I was thinking a wheel landing that slow was not possible. I'm concerned about lowering the nose at that point and forcing a landing (mostly I'm concerned about misjudging my height and doing this from a few feet instead of a few inches) But your technique makes sense. Its the next step from what I'm doing now-3 point followed immediately by forward yoke up on to the mains. I just need to get more comfortable with judging my height in that nose up position at just above stall speed. Also are you doing this power on or power off, or either one?

[redbarron55]

If think about it the CG Rotates about the wheel axis when the wheels touch. when the stick goes forward the GC goes up and forward. This is what I mean by Rotating
If the aircraft is trimmed nose down it will Roll down the Runway with no force forward or back on it
Power on is easier to stat with. This slows the rate of closure with the ground.
If you decend too fast then a lot is happening all at one time. It can be done but it taken practice.
Good Luck,

JDB

[Rollie]

JDB, thanks for the clarification. I'm looking forward to trying this. Power on seems like the place to start. That way you can take your time and get it just right. I suppose once you are comfortable with that it should be a natural (somewhat) progression into power off landings.
I appreciate the input, I'm always looking for different techniques that might work better for me.

Rich, I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[richas]

OK, so I guess I already am "rolling up on the mains". That is what happens when that yoke goes all the way to the panel.

One thing I notice about my wheel landings is that they sure use a lot more runway than 3-pointers. As I approach the runway I am modulating the power to control my descent rate, 75-80 mph. This can use up a lot of runway before the mains touch. Of course with three pointers the speed bleeds off fast because of the high angle of attack.

I have also notice that I seem to be relatively confident in one type of landing at a time, wheelies or 3-pointers. If I have been practicing one type I become timid about switching to the other. I guess I need to mix it up more. ;-)

In any case the Pacer is out of annual, and not flyable. It goes into the shop on Sunday, wish me luck. :P

Rich

[redbarron55]

A wheel landing should not take appreciably more runway than a three point if you use brakes. Not usning brakes is OK, but why did we put the Cleveland disks on then?
The point is that you don't HAVE to approach at a higer speed. Also when you pick the tail up (or roll up on the mains) you can place a negative angle of attack on the wings and place more pressure on the tire contact patch and increase the braking effectiveness. If you try to use the brakes early in a three point landing all you will do is slide the tires.
Also you should be able to place tha plane in position better at a slightly higher speed and not float waiting for the plane ot pay off. A Pacer will usually touchdown tail wheel first and there will be little weight on the wheels.
In the proper therr point configuration you press forward to load the wheels and come back on the yoke as the speed bleeds off and the airplane wants to pitch forward.
With proper technique and practice you could pprobably land shorter wheel landing than three point because of the ability to load the brakes and more precisely put the aircraft where you want it.
Pacers with the hydrasorb units wheel land great! If you have the brakes and want to use them for more than steering in tight places the Clevelands work really good. If you are a no brakes kind of guy then by all means put it on the runway and let it roll as far as you want. Put the tail down when you are kinda pressing the issue, sooner with that pesky crosswind.
The trick is avoid spending lots of time in those places where you have little control and relatively high speed.
If you think about it when kids play with model airplanes they land them on the wheels (usually).
Also the CG is closer to the contact patch with the tail up and therefore the tendency to ground loop is lessened. The ground looping tendency increased on the square of the speed (not considering the better airflow over the tail - just the physics of the thing) so having the tail up at higher speeds is a plus and the tailis not blanked by the fuselage.
To each his own, but my own guess is that many, many tailwheel pilots were taught by instructors who were marginally qualified in taildraggers and really could not explain what was happening to their students.

JDB

[scotthayd]

An airplane rotates about the CG in the air and about the axle on the ground.
When you have the aircraft near the ground (inches) when you are near the ground and ease the aircraft nose down the aircraft starts to rotate about the CG and when the wheels touch it continues to rotate about the wheel axles (the gear compresses as the weight is added to the mix).
The mental picture use is as stated to "roll up on the gear". The slower the speed the lower the tail and the more you "roll up". This rolling up to slightly nose down is what loads the gear, prevents the dreaded bounce , and goves the added control on the ground.
You can touch down slightly faster without float, load the gear, and control the aircraft better.
Of course you need to learn how to and when to put the tail down and transition to three point operation.
Now is when the debate would normally start.

This has been my most successful experience with wheel landings.
It's a bit nerve racking the first time you try it, but if you've got a good idea how far off the ground your mains are, it works PERFECTLY. It almost makes me want to do wheel landings more often. Almost.

[LightFlight]

I don't think I push the stick forward on my wheel landings, but then again I try not to think. I think about the weather, the route, the weight and balance, the fuel, the mission, etc., but when it comes time to land I stop thinking (after thinking about the windsock and traffic of course) and just feel the airplane.

I definitely do not pin the stick back on a wheel landing like I do for a 3-pointer, but I think I let the tail stop flying on its own terms. I don't try to hold it in the air, nor do I try to force it to the ground.

It would seem to me that pushing forward could be a bad idea when braking aggressively, and since I tend to approach a wee bit faster for a wheel landing, I will always go with 3-pointers when trying to stop in the shortest distance. Keep it straight, stick BACK, drag the tail, drag the wing, brake as needed.

We don't have a tail wheel endorsement in Canada, so I pretty much just felt it out as I went along.

[Greg Adams]

Hi Rich,

I've been taught this "stick to the panel" method for wheel landing, and I've also been told that depending on the airplane it can result in a prop strike. I always felt it was excessive. I had other instructors explain that as long as your forward stick motion at touchdown is sufficient to prevent continued flying, you don't need to move the stick farther forward until needed to keep the tail up as you slow down.

The last time I did wheel landings I moved the yoke forward 1-2" somewhat briskly at touchdown, and I found that method to be far more comfortable than moving the yoke to the panel immediately.

Something a non-engineer instructor won't tell you is that your spinning prop is a significant gyroscope, and that large yoke movement, which causes a sudden nose low attitude, generates some gyroscopic precession, and I suspect that is why you wrote "keep it straight" four times. Once I stopped moving the yoke to the panel I found steering on the ground became much easier on rollout.

[richas]

Hi Rich,

I've been taught this "stick to the panel" method for wheel landing, and I've also been told that depending on the airplane it can result in a prop strike. I always felt it was excessive. I had other instructors explain that as long as your forward stick motion at touchdown is sufficient to prevent continued flying, you don't need to move the stick farther forward until needed to keep the tail up as you slow down.

The last time I did wheel landings I moved the yoke forward 1-2" somewhat briskly at touchdown, and I found that method to be far more comfortable than moving the yoke to the panel immediately.

Something a non-engineer instructor won't tell you is that your spinning prop is a significant gyroscope, and that large yoke movement, which causes a sudden nose low attitude, generates some gyroscopic precession, and I suspect that is why you wrote "keep it straight" four times. Once I stopped moving the yoke to the panel I found steering on the ground became much easier on rollout.

The next time I am out I will progressively try less forward motion of the yoke. Perhaps full forward on the yoke gives you the ability to hold the wheels more firmly to the ground and therefore allow harder braking. I, on the other hand, verbally remind myself to stay WELL away from the brakes until the tail is down. Perhaps if I was one of those fellows in Valdez AL..........

Rich