Another battery question

[Will K]

The Gill battery that is installed in my Colt is officially dead. I've tried multiple time to resurrect it with a charger I've used successfully on other dying batteries but it no longer provides enough power when under load to start the plane and all chargers/tenders initially attempt to charge it but go into a battery fault mode. Hoping you all can point me in a direction to go on this. After the A&P telling me his fee to sign off the STC install of the lightweight battery I'm leaning away from that. Would prefer the Concorde but it may also require A&P signoffs....

So now the dilema is deciding which route to go.
Original Option A: Hawker J16 Battery with STC to install and sign off from the local A&P on the field.
Pros: Saves 15 pounds from the planes weight and has the best reviews. Cons: With the cost of STC and install the initial cost is creeping up on the $700 mark.

Option B: Replace with another Gill 7035-28 battery.
Pros: Easy install, no A&P entry required. Cons: Everyone I talk to says Gills are trash, Most expensive battery, Heaviest of them all at 30 pounds.

Option C: Replace the Gill with a Concorde RG-25 (Aircraft Spruce lists it as a suitable battery for the Colt)
Pros: Better reviews from other pilots than Gill, 7 pounds lighter than the Gill Cheaper than the Gill but more expensive than the J16. Cons: Might also require an STC (not sure) and if changing W&B I'll need an A&P to sign off on it which drives the price back up.

 

[tloes]

You likely need to parallel this "bad" battery with a good one in order for the charger to "see" something viable. I've had good luck doing that in the past (with my de-sulfating charger).

 

[Will K]

You likely need to parallel this "bad" battery with a good one in order for the charger to "see" something viable. I've had good luck doing that in the past (with my de-sulfating charger).

The charger sees it and will charge for a few hours. The battery will even show 13 volts when I test it with my multimeter after removing it from the charger, but as soon as I hit the starter button and it gets a load it drops voltage.

 

[akflyer]

upgrade the battery.. a few bucks now is worth it in the long run. If you are throwing $$ put an earth ex in it and loose even more weight. As far a cost per pound to loose weight in an airframe, this is one of the cheaper ways to lighten the plane up.

 

[stevesaircraft(Bri)]

Personally I would do the Svenn STC and install the lightweight battery. Have that in all of our airplanes except the Cessna and that is only because it is 24V.

Secondly - According to the PA-22 Type Certificate, the "approved" battery is a Reading S24-12V. That battery no longer exists. Technically, all of our airplanes should have a STC to run even the Gill. We had to get a field approval on a airplane that we re-built years ago due to a lost airworthiness and data plate. The airplane was certified under the "spares and surplus" rules of the time. (Registered now as a Piper-Pierce, note, no relation to Steve. Owner was Tony) At the time we were doing it there wasn't any PMA replacements for the Reading battery so we did the FA. That airplane is now owned by Backcountrypilot.org owner Zane.

--Brian

 

[JPerkins]

Did the Odyssey JB16 STC. Still going strong seven years later same battery.

 

[Gilbert Pierce]

I’m on third J16. Both were removed at 8 years still starting the 160, just got a little slow. They will still independently crank my emergency generator and pressure washer. I never put a battery charger on one during long downtimes.

 

[Will K]

I’m on third J16. Both were removed at 8 years still starting the 160, just got a little slow. They will still independently crank my emergency generator and pressure washer. I never put a battery charger on one during long downtimes.

Do you still have the generator on your plane or have you converted over to an alternator? Also curious if the generator will be a problem with the J16 battery.

 

[mholton63]

Do you still have the generator on your plane or have you converted over to an alternator? Also curious if the generator will be a problem with the J16 battery.

I might be a little bias working at Enersys the company that makes the Odyssey battery, but it will be the best battery you'll ever buy.

 

[Gilbert Pierce]

Do you still have the generator on your plane or have you converted over to an alternator? Also curious if the generator will be a problem with the J16 battery.

After landing at Memphis International Airport I had to keep the engine RPM up so I could talk to Ground while taxiing, I overheated my brakes. I ditched the generator as a result. for an alternator many years ago.

 

[N2709P]

Will K, if you have a properly functioning and adjusted generator, voltage regulator and battery you should have no issues with electrical power with your Tri-Pacer. We drove cars with generators for most of their existence and had very few troubles. Excepting the Lucas systems. The biggest issue is probably that the voltage regulator has not been adjusted since it left Piper. The points wear and need to be filed down and then readjusted for proper voltage. You have at least a 25 amp hour battery in your aircraft. If you cannot run the taxi light and communicate for at least 30 minutes at idle, you have an electrical issue. Corrosion, aluminum cables and a bad battery to name a few. Installing an alternator in the Tri-Pacer is in my opinion, either throwing away money or poor electrical troubleshooting skills. You can save a bit of weight with the alternator but the few pounds will not mean squat for 99% of Tri-Pacer operations. This does not include the issues and expense of relocating the oil cooler lines. Since the original battery in not available and you are not changing the design of the electrical system, any equivalent size/capacity PMA battery should just be considered a minor modification with a logbook entry by your A&P. The new AGM batteries have been giving good service. The greater the amp hours the better. Alternators are fine but they are not the panacea that you are led to believe. In spite of what some mechanics will tell you, the AGM batteries should be vented. Under the hood of a car with lots of fresh air it is not so critical but in a battery box in the fuselage, hook up the vents.
N2709P

 

[Subsonic]

I am very happy with the Svenn’s STC and the J16 battery, and the BandC alternator conversion on my Tri-pacer. Both saved a lot of weight and made my plane more reliable in my opinion. The Svenn‘s STC modification to the stock battery box to hold the smaller battery was very easy to do. My IA inspected it and signed it off, and did the STC paperwork for a very reasonable fee.

 

[Will K]

Will K, if you have a properly functioning and adjusted generator, voltage regulator and battery you should have no issues with electrical power with your Tri-Pacer. We drove cars with generators for most of their existence and had very few troubles. Excepting the Lucas systems. The biggest issue is probably that the voltage regulator has not been adjusted since it left Piper. The points wear and need to be filed down and then readjusted for proper voltage. You have at least a 25 amp hour battery in your aircraft. If you cannot run the taxi light and communicate for at least 30 minutes at idle, you have an electrical issue. Corrosion, aluminum cables and a bad battery to name a few. Installing an alternator in the Tri-Pacer is in my opinion, either throwing away money or poor electrical troubleshooting skills. You can save a bit of weight with the alternator but the few pounds will not mean squat for 99% of Tri-Pacer operations. This does not include the issues and expense of relocating the oil cooler lines. Since the original battery in not available and you are not changing the design of the electrical system, any equivalent size/capacity PMA battery should just be considered a minor modification with a logbook entry by your A&P. The new AGM batteries have been giving good service. The greater the amp hours the better. Alternators are fine but they are not the panacea that you are led to believe. In spite of what some mechanics will tell you, the AGM batteries should be vented. Under the hood of a car with lots of fresh air it is not so critical but in a battery box in the fuselage, hook up the vents.
N2709P

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm confident the issue I'm having is a battery issue and not a generator issue. The wife has agreed to upgrade to the J16 AGM battery and we are keeping the generator system for now. This is a new plane to us and while I've already started a laundry list of mods I'd like to do I'm also a realist in that I can't afford them all at once and I'd rather do a mod when it is needed to keep the plane in flying condition.

 

[N2709P]

Will, I would suggest that you check the output voltage of the voltage regulator. If the points are worn, the voltage could be low so you are not charging your battery to its full capacity. This should be checked as a normal routine during an Annual Inspection but I am amazed how many mechanics either overlook this procedure or do not know how to accomplish it. Checking should take about 5 minutes during the pre-inspection acceptance check engine run. If it needs adjusting, about 30 minutes as the engine will have to be run and the voltage regulator brought up to normal operating temperature for the adjustment. I use micarta or phenolic material to shim the battery box if using a smaller dimension replacement battery. Again, according to the FAA major/minor modification flow chart, the battery replacement should just be a minor modification. Your tech might view it otherwise.

 

[Will K]

generator is putting out 14 volts while flying. I'll still talk to the A&P/IA to see how comfortable he is testing and adjusting the regulator.

 

[Gilbert Pierce]

Will, I would suggest that you check the output voltage of the voltage regulator. If the points are worn, the voltage could be low so you are not charging your battery to its full capacity. This should be checked as a normal routine during an Annual Inspection but I am amazed how many mechanics either overlook this procedure or do not know how to accomplish it. Checking should take about 5 minutes during the pre-inspection acceptance check engine run. If it needs adjusting, about 30 minutes as the engine will have to be run and the voltage regulator brought up to normal operating temperature for the adjustment. I use micarta or phenolic material to shim the battery box if using a smaller dimension replacement battery. Again, according to the FAA major/minor modification flow chart, the battery replacement should just be a minor modification. Your tech might view it otherwise.

Here is the Delco proceedure for voltage regulator checks and adjustments.

 

[N2709P]

Will, 14 volts is probably Ok. You can take your battery down to an auto parts store and they can load check it for you, usually at no charge. You can have good voltage between the battery terminals but under load the battery drops off. Best way to confirm that your battery needs replacement. A little bit of time troubleshooting can save a lot of expense.
N2709P

 

[N2709P]

Thanks Gill for posting that information! I have an old Delco manual but unless I scan it, the information is difficult to share. It would be nice to have a repository for all these old manuals that we have collected over the years. Many of the younger members do not have the experience or data to work on some of this older equipment. It is up to us old farts to share what knowledge and experience we can remember before we take it with us for a dirt nap.
N2709P