Any chance my plane will sell with only the past 4 years of logs?

rmwalkersr

rmwalkersr

Non-Member
Kansas City, MO
According to the FAA records, right wing damage on N3407Z was repaired in 1984 (and the repairs were perfect!). When the valve stuck on the #3 cylinder, I opted to have the entire engine torn down to inspect the crankshaft. I suspected a prop-strike back in 1984 since the propeller was replaced when the wing was repaired. I was right. The crankshaft failed the dye test. We replaced the crankshaft with a heavy duty yellow-tagged crank. Divco rebuilt the case. Lycon polished and balanced the new Lycoming cylinders. The plane flies beautifully now behind a strong powerplant with only 75 hours since the field overhaul (+ about 4 hours each week to keep it fresh).
I have it listed for $29,500 and would take the first $28K so that we can pay off debt now that we're down to one income. That's my bottom dollar, otherwise I'll part it out for about $33K.
The logs were never passed along from the estate of a former deceased owner.
Any advice would be appreciated. If lost logs are such a deal breaker I'll just begin parting her out. But she flies so straght and strong that I'm hesitant to do that.
Opinions welcome, thanks,
Bob Walker
Yuma, AZ
 
You are required to have the records called out in 91.417


Sec. 91.417

Maintenance records.

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with Secs. 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include--
(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and
(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and
(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.
(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.
(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.
(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.
[ (v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the
next action is required.]
(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by Sec. 43.9(a) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.
(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:
(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.
(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.
(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under Sec. 43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.
(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law
enforcement officer.
(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.


Lots of owners want more, but this is all that is required.


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Buyers like to see logs all the way back to the factory. But I know of several airplanes with lost logs. That have been sold. If the plane is in good shape and the records you have look good it's not a dealbreaker for most buyers.

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Seems to me the hardest part of "reconstructing" logs is determining total time, and time since overhaul. (sounds like you already know TSMOH)

Sounds like you already have all info from the FAA. Were you lucky enough for any of the documents to include engine, and prop serial numbers, and tach time, compared to total time? This is the tough one, as most mechanics don't include this info on 337's. IF nothing gives the Tach/Total relationship, AND IF the tach 'appears' to be original (with 'believable' hours), then who's to say it's NOT the original tach (therefor showing total time)? I hear Clyde Smith has the 'build sheets' for most of our planes; maybe the build sheet has the serial number for the tach?

By the way, it sounds like you have had the plane several years,, what has your IA's been putting down as TT?

Major repairs and alterations should be recorded with the FAA, worst case you may have to pay an IA to confirm (in writing, in the logs) that the repair/alteration was done correctly). Compliance on all AD's will have to be confirmed.

Obviously, all paper work since new is very desirable, but it doesn't seem like a reason to scrap a perfectly good plane. When you try to sell the fuselage/engine/prop, don't you think the buyer is going to want the logs? Go talk to an inspector at your FSDO, and explain your predicament, I know (some of) the inspectors at the ICT FSDO are very friendly, reasonable and are actually interested in helping.

I suppose you have 'done the math' figuring on the value of parting out the plane (I have not), but I would venture a guess that it will take DECADES to sell every single part individually, most likely running up big $$ in storage fees, advertisement, etc.
 
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I would be mostly interested in engine records showing the last engine tear down, AD compliance, record of 337's showing major alterations and repairs and the last few annual inspections. Plus, a good pre sale inspection. My airframe logs go back to 1980. Since then the fuselage has been stripped twice with a complete rebuild and has had many modifications. There is nothing in the lost log book that is of value.
 
It will depend on the buyer . Its not a game stopper . My plane had good logs back to 1997 but from 1956-1997 it’s a bit here and there . I like the plane , had a good pre-buy , the seller seemed trustworthy so I bought my plane
I paid the asking price and love it . Again depends on
buyer , seller and plane condition . Don’t sweat it , LIST IT !
 
I wouldn’t part it out. A Tri-Pacer is not like a C-185 or Cirrus, I imagine you could do pretty well on planes that keep a high value. There are plenty of PA-22’s in hangars across the country that were taken apart to recover, and for whatever reason, were never returned to airworthiness. There are also quite a few PA-22’s already being parted out, so you would be competing with them.

It might seem like there are no buyers looking at your plane, and incomplete logs will scare off some for sure, but it will sell. Give it a month or two and the right buyer will come along. I have been thinking of calling you on your plane, but lack of affordable hangars nearby is keeping me from getting another plane.
 
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I would put together all the documentation you have so that it is obvious to the perspective buyer what you have, when things were done, AD compliance etc. I hate seeing these airplanes parted out. I also wonder if and how long it would take to get you asking price parting it out.
 
I bought a set of wings for my pacer that were just recovered from a salvage yard. The owner said he couldn’t understand why it was so hard to sell pa 22/20 parts.


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Concur with those that have voted: DO NOT part it out. The time and effort required to part it out is substantial. To get all your money out of every last part is HARD. The "loss" you may assume in the near term selling the plane as a whole nice flying machine will be offset by the sudden large influx of capital for your situation. You're already resigned yourself to losing money when you buy an airplane. You know that. Selling it in one piece - with the transparency you've shown so far - should minimize any difference in what you may perceive to be of benefit in parting it out. In other words, people appreciate honesty and will pay for it. My 2 centavos.
 
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Thank you all for your valuable feedback. With the airframe and wings in perfect shape, and the beautifully rebuilt engine running strong, my low-time bird is now enjoying a new home. The value of the plane did take a hit for not having complete log books, but someone is able to enjoy my bird and keep it flying for years to come.
 
I had 3 near misses in the last few months, in cluding one not properly represented by the seller which cost me a pretty penny to go to see, my fault. i would would not part out this kind of airplane. show us what y got and bet you might be surprised by the interest, including mine.
 
I have looked at three different airplanes for 3 separate buyers this past week. I never left my computer and eliminated all three.

One airplane was a work of art and had cubic dollars thrown at it but after talking to three people who had been involved in it's construction I determined it did not meet my customer's mission. Actually, according to the guy that finished it, it just needs to sit in a hangar for people to look at. Not practical to fly and maintain.

On the second one I offended the seller because of the documentation I asked for. I never did get everything I asked for and finally got a snotty email response but what I did determine was that the supposed 50 hrs since major overhaul engine was actually overhauled 1671 hrs ago in 1965, lots of repairs like a new crank and new piston rings but some misinterpreted logbook entries that were actually pretty clear if you read them. No AD list since 2009 and that one didn't include any engine accessories. 1989 fabric, 2 non-sealed struts and a prime price, it was passed on.

The third one had lots of high resolution pictures and good documentation. After going through the pictures I had a page of discrepancies. I called the buyer and told him what I saw in the pictures and I could guarantee there was way more if I saw the plane in person. He decided not to pursue it so all I had in it was reviewing the pictures and telling him what I saw.

I learned years ago with modern technology I can eliminate a lot of perspective airplanes from my computer and sometimes even by talking to the seller. Be careful, there are some really nice airplanes and then there are money pits.
 
interesting comments, my reaction: the first airplane was fit for a museum thus not practical for your mission, the second even the most basic due diligence would have rejected it particularly with testy owner and there are many of those . The third one i do not understand because i do not know what the discrepancies were. Many of us can write a page of discrepancies the question is how serious and expensive to fix were they? particularly those that you could identify from pictures. and i ask myself how would i react if i'm told that "if i go to see your airplane i can guarantee I'll find lots of stuff wrong with it".
 
The first one was all custom, mechanic said you can't even remove the cowl without scratching paint. The owner flew it once and said "Not what I wanted, sell it".

Hose clamps holding the muffler to the exhaust pipes on both sides.
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Nice bootleg thrustline modification.
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Crunchy rudder.
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What do these circuit breakers go to?
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Interesting open concept extended baggage compartment.
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And these are just a few examples. Gives me an idea of how the airplane was modified and maintained. Guy wanted to put it on a Part 135 certificate for guiding in Alaska for the Fall hunting season.
 
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