Bat pacer Vs Bushmaster???

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

Hi guys my name is Makena O'Toole and am new here and relatively new to flying. I bought the Bat pacer from Travis Handy. I'm curious with all the modification that was done to the plane why they didn't just go all the way and make it a bushmaster. Can anyone tell me what all it would entail to convert it and what the advantages or disadvantages would be. I've seen a couple threads on here about the "Bat Pacer" but for anyone that's unfamiliar with it. Its a 180hp PA-22-20 that has the crosswinds Stol kit on squared off wings with PA-18 extended flaps and Ailerons extended to the wing tips, PA-18 tail feathers, a heavy duty producer landing gear on 31" bush wheels, 30gal atlee tanks, seaplane observer doors, VG's .....ect. Its highly modified. The very little I have been able to fly in it so far it seems to perform extremely well. I know I need to just spend some time flying it to see how it really performs but I'm already thinking about spending next winter trying to give it a stretch.

Would a bushmaster get me a higher gross weight?

Would the conversion lower my stall speed?

Is a bushmaster easier to fly?

And finally roughly how much would it cost to stretch the fuselage and add a little more on the wings assuming that I would need to have someone else do most of the work?

My main priorities are Short field performance and high gross weight. The only reason I didn't buy a cub was that I needed more packing capability to support my remote commercial fishing operations.

This site has been a wealth of knowledge thank you all for sharing

 

[Stephen]

The answer to all three of your questions is yes!

I flew a highly modified Pacer with most of the mods that Batpacer has for many years. Then, I converted it to a stretched Pacer several years ago. It is a completely different airplane. Yes, it's more docile to land. I can make my approaches 10+ mph slower without using power and solid control and roll tail wheel on first if I want. My landings and take offs are usually well under 200 feet. The Super Pacer cruises differently, I can fly at low rpm 2100 and remain on the step and burn under 6 gph. My GW is 2100, but the stretch added 80 pounds (although, aluminum struts will save at least 15 pounds). Very little trim is needed at gross weight or between take off and landing. The STC is held by James A Smith, you can find his email in the forum, he also has a website. He explains why the stretch is actually called Super Pacer, not Bushmaster.

It will save you money and time too: 1. Buy all the precut spar reinforcement from James. 2. Do not replace the spars with new. The reinforcement in the STC is outboard of the spar attachment and is stronger than a new spar. 3. Gather used wing parts including flaps, ailerons from Cubs and Pacers ahead of the project. Avoid buying new. 4. Check out the newly approved Airframes STC for aluminum struts for the Pacer. Buy their STC and see if they will sell you super Cub length spars with the upper end left open. Your mechanic can legally combine the Super Pacer STC and Airframes STC. You will save up to $2k and 16 pounds weight and have much stronger spars. 5. Use the SC aileron option (if you can find use SC ailerons great) this option will allow 90 inch flaps, which you will love.

Other mods to consider at the same time, Trimmer SC gear with ACME shocks, sea plane doors and SC tail feathers.

I do my own work and spent less than $10k on the stretch. SC gear is a couple thousand but, you can sell your Pacer gear. If your mechanic will work with you, you can strip the old fabric, take the metal parts in yourself to be bead blasted and painted and help with airframe clean up. The cost will greatly depend on the underlying condition of the plane. My project took me 7 months full time work. The 5 points I listed should save significantly.

 

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

Hey thanks for that response. It sounds like its definatly worth while to do the conversion in the long run. I think I will start talking to some shops up here in anchorage and if the fishing season goes well will hopefully be able to make it a winter project next year. I believe I already have the 1-1/2 extended cub landing gear and I have the sea plane doors and the cub tail feathers but will look into the acme shocks I am going to be getting flight instruction there to satisfy my insurances 15hrs dual instruction clause. What did your final wing span end up at?
What did your empty weight come in at after the project?
And what kind of tires are you running now?
I have 31" bushwheels on now but all my spotter pilots are pretty big fans of the 35" bush wheels when there not flying on floats.

Thanks again for all the info

 

[Stephen]

My empty weight is 1180 lbs, with 29" Bushwheels. The stretch is the only mod that I have done that significantly raised the value of my Pacer. If you do searches of Stretched Pacers you can get other pilot reports. The Trimmer SC STC is for 3 inch extended gear. The ACME shocks are approved for PA18. If you have Trimmer gear it should be easy to get a field approval. Although, I am stilling waiting on mine to go through. The ACME are much better than the Maule shocks listed for the Trimmer gear. They absorb much more energy, making me look like I can actually land one of these things. Also, my cruise speed decrease was about 2 mph. My wing span is 37'2", this can very depending on what wing tips you use. You can keep the tips you got, they are fine.

Find a shop that will use or create a jig to keep you frame straight when doing the stretch. If they do TIG welding there should also be less chance for warpage.

Steve Bryant builds the Producer up there. It is a different version of a stretched Pacer.....it is not cheap. But, maybe worth looking into.

 

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

Thanks for that, Looking thru my log books it seems that Steve Bryant was the one who did most of the current mods on the plane. Part of the reason I have been wondering why the previous owner didn't just do the stretch when he did all the other mods. I have been trying to find a way to get ahold of Steve I found a number for Jakes Aircraft salvage but it was disconnected. If anyone knows how to contact him please let me know. Or if anyone has any suggestions on shops up here in anchorage that would be good options for the super pacer conversion.

 

[Stephen]

You can send a message on this forum to Steve. He goes by Airwrench. It should show up in his email.

The Producer uses PA14 wings while the Super Pacer splicies onto the existing Pacer wing, basically a super Cub wing. The SP wing is incredibly strong, stronger than Cub wings. The Producer and SP wings are very similar. The PA14 ailerons have a wedge leading edge which improves roll rate. I'm not sure why Piper did not continue it. I think the Producer has a little lower GW. There are some great pictures of Steve's Producer with an aircraft engine in the back of his plane. Both excellent conversions. I would guess that the SP is a bit simpler conversion especially if you use aluminum struts. Steve could answer many of these questions.

 

[akflyer]

Stretching it will lower your AOA on the gound. The Bat Pacer has a really wide gear on it. The log books show any recent engine work other than the one new jug? When we were testing the ground adjustable prop on it, it was pulling the same RPMS at the same pitch as my 160 HP and would not pull the higher pitches that a 180 should pull (compared to a whole lot of other planes with the 180 we have tested locally).

 

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

How long ago was that? the engine in there now was installed in 2011. Its had a couple cylinders replaced since then and valves and a bunch of other pretty general engine maintenance. That seems concerning that it wasn't pulling higher pitches. Any thoughts what might be going on there???? We replaced one cylinder that had low compression in December.

 

[Stephen]

Stretching it will lower your AOA on the gound. The Bat Pacer has a really wide gear on it. The log books show any recent engine work other than the one new jug? When we were testing the ground adjustable prop on it, it was pulling the same RPMS at the same pitch as my 160 HP and would not pull the higher pitches that a 180 should pull (compared to a whole lot of other planes with the 180 we have tested locally).

Good point on AOA. With SC gear the AOA is about the same as Cub. My plane lifts off as soon as the tail flys at about 38 mph. I also did a bit of prop testing and found the different props can't be compared by pitch angle. The new Sensenich ground adjustable does not even advertise their pitches.

 

[akflyer]

Good point on AOA. With SC gear the AOA is about the same as Cub. My plane lifts off as soon as the tail flys at about 38 mph. I also did a bit of prop testing and found the different props can't be compared by pitch angle. The new Sensenich ground adjustable does not even advertise their pitches.

The pitches are on the installation sheet. they correspond with the pin numbers. Why would they advertise pitches when its fully adjustable?

 

[Stephen]

The pitches are on the installation sheet. they correspond with the pin numbers. Why would they advertise pitches when its fully adjustable?

Most props are sold by length and pitch. When I purchased a Sensenich ground adjustable prop last year, pin number is all that was listed in the installation sheet. I had to ask their technical people to get more specific information. They told me that comparing different brand props by pitch angle does not tell the whole story. I was interested in knowing the range of pitches on the Sensenich to have some comparison to a 82 41 Catto. It turned out that I had to machine larger pins (greater pitch) to get comparable performance numbers on the 82 inch Sensenich prop to the Catto. I collected data on McCauley, Catto and Sensenich. Static on the Catto is 2250 vs 2350 on the Sensenich. Both props cruised at 105 mph at 2450. Climb at 65 mph climb was a bit better on the Catto. Both are excellent props, too bad they are not approved for our aircraft. I still don't know what pitch the .650 diameter pin I made for the Sensenich prop is.

 

[Southern Aero]

Makena, here's a couple places for good info and contacts

https://superpacer.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/stretchedpacer

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txazZDJMWJ8
[/URL]

 

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

Thanks for those links I'll check them both out..

 

[PACERGUY]

The Batpacer is a excellent plane. It belonged to a friend of mine. It is one of the most modified Pacers I know of. A lot of time/money/labor/parts went into making it the plane it is to day. I think you would be ahead in both money and effort if you simply started with a clean slate. The wing is not just a extend it fix, what about the leading edge are you going to keep it? Now you have to find the Charley center parts to extend the cuff. Can you run the dodge tanks in a cub size extended wing Pacer? Find a Tripacer and build what you want while you are flying the Batpacer. Once the project is done Sell the Batpacer. Finding the local talent to do the conversion is not as easy as it seems, a lot of shops are backed up a year or two. Also are you talking about flying fish out from a commercial fishing operation? What runway won't the Batpacer work off of? What is the gross weight of Batpacer vs superpacer? Superpacer will most likely weigh a bit more and have less AOA on takeoff as the Batpacer due to the longer fuselage. By the time you add pilot and fuel you really don't have a huge useful load with either plane. Just things to think about before you hack up a nice Pacer.
DENNY

 

[makenaotoole@yahoo.com]

Roger thanks for that. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense. I’m definitely learning alot. I think you’re right I probably just need to fly the plane for awhile and maybe I’m better off just waiting until a super pacer comes up for sale if I decide that’s what I want. So far I have to say I am extremely impressed with the Bat Pacers performance. It may be all I ever want or need. As far as flying fish goes I know both planes would be pretty limited. But at $3.00 a lb if I can make 5 trips a day it would at least pay for fuel. It would be more of a hobby anyway. Let’s me fish some cool places that haven’t been fished in over 50 yrs. I guess the other thing to keep in mind is at least for the first few years it’s going to by my limitations as a pilot that will be holding me back. The plane is far more capable than I am so converting to a super pacer wouldn’t really gain me much for awhile. Any way thanks for the response. Your reply is pretty much what I tell every young fisherman wanting to chop their boats up to try and make them bigger. Your usually money ahead just buying or building what you want from the start.

 

[Southern Aero]

Makena

I agree with Pacerguy almost 100% ............ :icon_biggrin: only thing I may differ on is the lengthening of the fuselage makes very little difference in AOA. Less than a degree on mine, depends on what tire you go with too. Plus the normal stretch has a lot more wing area. Like was said above, if all this is fairly new to you, think about gaining experience with the Batpacer and keep your eye out for a derelict late '56 PA22 or even a 22/20. They come up all the time on insurance salvage sites. I would have a lot of heartburn cutting up a perfectly good and flying Tri Pacer. I don't know what your capabilities are but take that into consideration. A stretch project, STC'd or EXP, takes a lot of time to build.

I never met the previous owner of your plane but I did email/message back and forth years ago when I was first starting on mine. BUT he is responsible for me keeping mine a basically short wing, but highly modified, with the extended fuselage. Hence, it got dubbed "the Bastard" right off the git go by somebody since no one has done that before that I know of. As far as gross weight goes for some of the stretches, the STC'd version, Super Pacer, is 2100 pounds. The EXP version is 2400 and one has been built with 2900 pound gross. The Super Pacer (Bushmaster, EXP) has a massive spar reinforcement that was engineered and well tested.

 

[Pilot-34]

Makena

I agree with Pacerguy almost 100% ............ :icon_biggrin: only thing I may differ on is the lengthening of the fuselage makes very little difference in AOA. Less than a degree on mine, depends on what tire you go with too. Plus the normal stretch has a lot more wing area. Like was said above, if all this is fairly new to you, think about gaining experience with the Batpacer and keep your eye out for a derelict late '56 PA22 or even a 22/20. They come up all the time on insurance salvage sites. I would have a lot of heartburn cutting up a perfectly good and flying Tri Pacer. I don't know what your capabilities are but take that into consideration. A stretch project, STC'd or EXP, takes a lot of time to build.

I never met the previous owner of your plane but I did email/message back and forth years ago when I was first starting on mine. BUT he is responsible for me keeping mine a basically short wing, but highly modified, with the extended fuselage. Hence, it got dubbed "the Bastard" right off the git go by somebody since no one has done that before that I know of. As far as gross weight goes for some of the stretches, the STC'd version, Super Pacer, is 2100 pounds. The EXP version is 2400 and one has been built with 2900 pound gross. The Super Pacer (Bushmaster, EXP) has a massive spar reinforcement that was engineered and well tested.

What goes into obtaining a 2900 lb gross ?

 

[Southern Aero]

You would have to check with EA Structures in Canada. It's on their site. I only made the struts for it