Charging woes

S

sdemeyer

Non-Member
Well I'm stumped on my charging problem and need to solicit some advise. My plane is generator equipped and I cannot seem to get it to charge " normally". If I disconnect the field wire from the regulator and manually ground it, the generator outputs fine and the ammeter shows a nice charge for as long as I keep the field wire grounded. If I reconnect the field wire to the regulator, the ammeter shows a charge for about 30 seconds and then "slowly" the needle goes to discharge where it stays. I've taken the generator into a shop and it tests fine. I just replaced the regulator with a brand new unit but I still have the same problem.

Not sure where to go from here. Any ideas out there?
 
Despite the new regulator it sounds like a regulator problem. Any good shop should be able to check the regulator. And you might ask your autoparts guy for a regulator for a '56 oldsmobile. This has worked for me many, many times. But I have no idea if such a thing is still available.
 
#1... bad master switch/field side, or bad field breaker? (if so connected) jumper past switch to test...

#2...bad grounds/connections between engine/mount/firewall/regulator... (when you turn that on full blast like you did, it might be strong enough to overpower the bad spots)

#3... the battery is already fully/or over charged and shows high enough Voltage, so.. regulator is turning off, just like it should....
 
Thanks for the replies, I traced and ohmed out every wire having to do with the charging system and found nothing wrong. When I reconnected the wires, it started charging again. Obviously I had/have a bad connection somewhere. I'll let it go for a while and see if it continues to work properly. The poor thing had to spend the night at Thun field, out in the cold because I couldn't get her started. Don't want that to happen again.
 
This generator setup is so simple I am in shock I can't seem to fix my charging issue. It's charging, but barely and the battery still runs down after after a week or so of use. I'm to the point now where I think I will ditch the generator setup and install an alternator.
 
When charging what voltage do you get at the battery?

If charging voltage is LOW you will never have a fully charged battery.
 
Finally solved my charging problem. I bought another voltage regulator and that did the trick. So I had 2 bad voltage regulators in a row.
 
Bit like the "brand new" mag I once had fitted - on the first takeoff it karked it!

I naturally thought it was the other old one that had gone so I switched it off - and then ALL the noise stopped. :new_Eyecrazy:

Amazing how fast your hands work when they are pumped full of adrenalin!
 
I seem to be having the same problem now! The plane shows a charge, but the battery dies. Both the generator and voltage regulator were rebuilt during the rebuild. I flew into the avionics shop yesterday to get the radio reinstalled. They asked me to move the plane, well don't ya know the plane wouldn't start!!! I moved it by hand and this morning after I got off work I hand propped it and it started slicker than snot. We seemed to have the same problem when I took the plane back over from the rebuild. Do you think I should buy a replacement regulator? How much is one of those bad boys worth?

Dan
 
When I first got the 52 tripacer in 07, I had concerns whether the charging system was working all the time. Luckly I have had 50 years of building ham radio transmitters and station equipment and many good volt ohm meters and a big electronic parts supply. The first thing I built was a fused pig tail comming out of the battery box which lays on the cabin floor. Now I can measure battery voltage anytime, airplane sitting still or airplane flying. The second thing to build, was a small electronic voltmeter velcroed on the panel. Now I can watch bus voltage with alternator running. What I have found, generator field panel switch, points worn and tarnished, high resistance, replaced. Crimped wiring connections corroded, even wires pulling out of old crimps. replaced. After 2 years of perfect charging am starting to seem some intermittent problems and it seems to be at the master switch. We have had a wet humid spring and the problems started then. This week am going to disconnect wiring at master switch, reclean all wiring and switch lugs, and wireing contacts on bus bar. Have even found firewall grounds loose so am going to build a new copper firewall buss. What I found normally, with engine off, a .4 volt drop between battery and fuse buss with radios on and elect turn and bank running. Now as I flip master switch from one fuse to the other, the voltage difference can be 1.6, 1.2, .8, .4 so that tells me, dirty contacts at master switch wiring, fused holder, or master switch. I will start by disconnecting postive battery cable and do a ohms check between it and the buss system. When the system is working normal, I will see 13.4 at the buss and 12.9 at the battery. Several years ago I research the other Piper forum about buss voltage drop and the opinions were that .4 drop was normal. I think that can be improved and might go with new buss and circuit breakers. Bob N2177A
 
Bob - your post demonstrates the value of this site. This sort of information from someone who actually knows how to drive a voltage tester, is invaluable.

Patsy the Pacer is 55 years young and I reckon the electricals have done enough and deserve a nice retirement. So during the restoration, I am replacing every original wire, switch, globe, circuit breaker, whatever, with new to try to avoid these problems in the future. Thanks again - good info.
 
EPSCopper said:
I seem to be having the same problem now! The plane shows a charge, but the battery dies. Both the generator and voltage regulator were rebuilt during the rebuild. I flew into the avionics shop yesterday to get the radio reinstalled. They asked me to move the plane, well don't ya know the plane wouldn't start!!! I moved it by hand and this morning after I got off work I hand propped it and it started slicker than snot. We seemed to have the same problem when I took the plane back over from the rebuild. Do you think I should buy a replacement regulator? How much is one of those bad boys worth?

Dan
Click to expand...


The Regulator should not be a factor when starting by hand propping.

If the Ammeter shows a charge but you wind up with a dead battery:

1. The battery may not be taking a charge.

a. A hydrometer would tell the story or

you can get it bench tested for capacity


2. The Ammeter may be defective & lying to you.
 
The first Colt that i owned had bad starting symptoms. Very slow cranking rpm. Ammeter acted normal. One thing that the ammeter won't tell you though is charging voltage. The only problem with my old colt is that the regulator was cutting the charge out at anything above approx. 13 volts. The regulator has 3 relays. One is for cut in (the rpm has to be high enough to sustain a charge). One is current limit (to not allow the generator to produce more current than it was designed for). The third is a voltage limiting relay that controls the max voltage that is introduced into the system. This is the relay that i adjusted to approx. 14V and all was well.

Hope this helps,
Dusty
 
Charge the battery and then check the voltage at the battery when the starter button is pushed. if the voltage is good check it at the starter as well. This will show if the battery is good or their could be resistance in the starter cable.
 
Dan
You want me to bring my Meter?- you're only and hour or so drive away- 30 min by air
Shane
 
Shane,

I have a meter, but you can bring yours for sure! I just flew back from Penticton without any battery power, P.O'd for sure, didn't even get the fuel tanks to work! I have to get this problem solved for sure!!!

I'm on holidays until 13 July.... I can fly down too

Dan
 
Hi dan
Can you give a couple of days? I was in that Tornado that hit east of Innisfail Thursday night(And I mean IN- trees uprooting 5 feet from me- family cowering in our motorhome.... )no fun. I'm picking up the pieces.
Shane
Ps I'd send along a picture but don't know how to attach one-Techno illiterate
SC
 
A follow up on my charging problems. The problem was in the circuit breaker buss bar area. Removed the circuit breaker panel and there it was. The wire from the alt. breaker was not hard wired fastened to the buss strip. Some genius electrician used a hard drawn #10 solid copper wire from the alt. breaker and it had a big solder lug on the end on it. He bent in such a way that the lug had pressure against the buss bar strip to make the electrical contact. Also found the 12volt feed from the battery to the buss strip was a loose connection. Screw where it tighten on the strip was loose. Another problem I found was a brush resistance problem. I opened the field circuit and measured 28 ohms thru the field circuit to ground. Turn the prop, up to 140 ohms, jiggle prop, 25 ohms. Installed new brushes, 4.5 ohms, rotate prop 15 ohms, then back to 5 ohms. Brush tension bad. Can make the same check on a generator to check armature brushes by disconnecting 12v feed wire at regulator and measuring from there. Did run a new ground wire from alternator case to firewall and from firewall to regulator ground. Everything now running right, alt voltage 14.1 at buss on start up, all lights, strobes, radios on, 13.2 at buss and 12.9 at battery. Am going to get new circuit breakers and make a new slimline under the panel breaker system.
Bob Ohio
 
Shane,

You tell me when your available! Take care of your responsibilities first... Family always comes first!

Bob,

Glad to hear you figured it out! I hope to do the same thing! Everything was rebuilt on the plane during rebuild, the only thing I can think of is a short or loose wire somewhere. I'm just not an electrical kind of guy!

Dan
 
Just finished it a few hours back, the buss voltage drop between the battery and buss, was .4 volt drop, now .13 volt drop. The buss strip feeding the breakers is a light aluminum strip with holes in it. Some one has used a screw to fasten the 12v feed from the battery switch to the strip. With the weight of the feed wire, tension, and vibration, the screw hole had weakened and screw became loose. I used a fine threaded bolt and then nut to make a stud attach point, then the 12v from battery and then alternator supply on top of it and pulled tight with a self locking nut. I cleaned all lugs with a stainless wire brush to clean off oxidation. Will throw the fire extinguisher on the front set and do test run and flight in the morning when it is cooler. Bob
 
I had a thought run through my mind here..... Shouldn't all electrical run off the generator when the prop is turning? My battery is 100% dead, nothing else runs at all, no transponder, no fuel gauges, nothing????
 
Make sure your master switch fuses are good (if that what you have). I had 2 bad this week with cold solder joints. Couldn't tell by looking at them. Bought a new batch and replaced both.

The generator should charge even with a completely dead battery. That is unless the battery is a complete short. That would take all the load the generator could provide.

Tim
 
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If your piper has original wiring system, you have to have battery voltage to excite the exciter winding of the generator to make it charge.The master switch under the seat controls 2 separate circuits. 1 circuit is 12 volts to the buss of all breakers. The second is a open, closed switch circuit of the voltage line from the regulator to the generator field. When you switch up or down, you put voltage to buss and is fed thru the 15amp breaker to the 12v output side of the regulator, . Field voltage for the generator, comes from the field control circuit built into the regulator, thru a wire back thru the second switch circuit of the master switch and back to the field winding in the generator. Any time the master is switched to center positionl (shut off ), the winding circuit is opened up and the generator stops charging. This diagram is shown on page 20, figure 10 of the original PA22 Owners Handbook. If the battery is charge up, and ammeter shows a constant discharge, generator isn't working. If needed , there is a good Delco Remey service bulletin on the web on trouble shooting and adjusting regulators. I will find it and link it. Your problem could be a broken field wire at the generator case. Bob
 
Did you "flash the field" after overhaul. Generators need residual magnetism for self excitation not battery voltage. Read page 4 repolarizing. Most aircraft are the three unit type.
 

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That was the service bulletin I was after which shows generators with a self excited field. The Piper Owners Handbook diagram, shows one side of the field going to armature brush ground and the other to the regulator. Is this also a self excited field ? Bob
 
Hi Dan
What Bob is saying is correct: you need a Battery in the circuit or our old generator equipped A/C won't work. I've got the world back on an even keel after the Tornado. When is it convenient to come visit and look at your problem. I'm on holidays until the 19th
Shane
 
Shane,

I'm out tomorrow but available on Wednesday for sure. I'll charge up the battery and see what we can come up with.

I have the old system with the dual circuits. The re excitement was not done after the regulator was not reinstalled again. Hopefully no damage was done!!??

I also had a blown fuse, went to Canadian tire and bought a brand new 32A fuse. Both look good right now...

Dan
 
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Shane and Dan Here is a link to an article about aircraft generators and alternators. It describes the 2 types, A type and B type. Self excited field, A Type, external excited field B type. All Delcos are A type, Prestolite and others are B type. I don't know what original equip was on pa-22. http://www.aerotechlou.com/ts_alternators.shtml There is another site in a navion site which goes into detail about polarizing the B type generator. I can foward it if needed. Bob
 
Dan
Wednesday will work for me. I can drop of my son at work and head to Wetaskiwin after that. be there about 11 am?
403-896-4809
Shane
 
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