Clipper going EXPERIMENTAL

PA-16

Non-Member
CGX
Youtube Clipper owner taking stock Clipper to Experimental, not interested in doing this but thought it was next to impossible to take a certified plane into experimental.

He just takes it apart and puts it back together and its experimental? Is this legal to just install mods and all of a sudden its experimental.
 
He called asking me questions. It gave me an opportunity to ask why a STOL Clipper. He said that is what he has. Waste of a great airplane in my opinion. I love flying the Clipper. It is what I started flying gravel bars in. Not very good for that in so many ways. AOPA and others are sponsoring him.
 
Youtube Clipper owner taking stock Clipper to Experimental, not interested in doing this but thought it was next to impossible to take a certified plane into experimental.

He just takes it apart and puts it back together and its experimental? Is this legal to just install mods and all of a sudden its experimental.
You have to remember there are many flavors of Experimental. Airplanes that at one time had Standard airworthiness certificates have Experimental certificates issued frequently for specific purposes. R&D, Show Compliance, Exhibition would be the three most common types of Experimental certificates issued to airplanes that previously held Standard certificates. What you can’t do is take an airplane that had Standard certificate and make it an Amateur Built. All that said there are some significant limitations when going “Experimental”. The first and most important is 91.319 says you can only use the aircraft “for the purpose for which the certificate was issued”. In the case of Exhibition, that means that you can only legally fly it to exhibit it, fly to and from the place of exhibition and proficiency flying. The other issue often overlooked is 43.1. Parent 43.1 say that part 43 doesn’t apply to Experimental aircraft unless the aircraft previously held a different type of certificate. That means that legally all maintenance still needs to be signed off by an A&P and all major alterations still need to have 337. These two regulations are often overlooked but if FAA wants to, they could fine you $10,000 for each flight not in support of exhibition or proficiency. They could fine you the same amount for each maintenance task not signed by an A&P or each major alteration without a 337. Yeah, I know it hasn’t happened, but it could. You have to ask, do you want to put yourself in a position to be subject to those kinds of fines?
 
I talked to Joe Dory at Oshkosh. He competed in the STOL demo and was always announced as “ Joe Dory in his Pacer”. However, it is really not a Pacer anymore, it is registered as Experimental. He basically took a Tri-Pacer fuselage and wings and took the data plate of. Then build his airplane even changing the angle of incident of the wing and many, many more mods. Then he registered it as one of a kind experimental airplane. At least that is my understanding of what he explained to me. Super nice guy and very impressive airplane.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
 
I talked to Joe Dory at Oshkosh. He competed in the STOL demo and was always announced as “ Joe Dory in his Pacer”. However, it is really not a Pacer anymore, it is registered as Experimental. He basically took a Tri-Pacer fuselage and wings and took the data plate of. Then build his airplane even changing the angle of incident of the wing and many, many more mods. Then he registered it as one of a kind experimental airplane. At least that is my understanding of what he explained to me. Super nice guy and very impressive airplane.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
Likely as an Experimental Exhibition. It would not qualify as an Experimental Amateur Built! Any work done on a component that was previously installed on a certified aircraft does not count towards the "major portion" requirement of 21.191(g). That work is considered Part 43 Maintenance, not fabrication and assembly. Keep in mind when you say EXPERIMENTAL, there are 9 different types of EXPERIMENTAL certificates each with different requirements and limitations.
 
Likely as an Experimental Exhibition. It would not qualify as an Experimental Amateur Built! Any work done on a component that was previously installed on a certified aircraft does not count towards the "major portion" requirement of 21.191(g). That work is considered Part 43 Maintenance, not fabrication and assembly. Keep in mind when you say EXPERIMENTAL, there are 9 different types of EXPERIMENTAL certificates each with different requirements and limitations.
Not to be Devils advocate, BUT...

I know of 2 Experimental Amateur Build's that were created by using just the cabin area of a Certified PA-22 air frame.
One aircraft had a complete new tail section from the rear door back, fabricated wings, control surfaces, landing gear and engine mount with a 540.
The other also had a new tail section, raised cabin by 1.5 inch, firewall moved forward 3 inches, flaps from a Cessna 172, fabricated wings, most control surfaces, landing gear and engine mount with a 0-360.

Would you consider these NOT in compliance with the rule or are the modifications enough to consider them within the limits.

--Brian
 
I’m watching some of our EAA Chapter members “build” their experiment airplanes using quick build kits ( mostly RVs). The wings and fuselage come mostly assembled and they don’t manufacture anything. They are basically buying finished parts and assemble the airplane. I understand the regulations (I think), but from a practical point of view I don’t see why you can’t take a fuselage and wings and build an airplane with many mods. You would do more manufacturing than assembling a kit airplane.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
 
Not to be Devils advocate, BUT...

I know of 2 Experimental Amateur Build's that were created by using just the cabin area of a Certified PA-22 air frame.
One aircraft had a complete new tail section from the rear door back, fabricated wings, control surfaces, landing gear and engine mount with a 540.
The other also had a new tail section, raised cabin by 1.5 inch, firewall moved forward 3 inches, flaps from a Cessna 172, fabricated wings, most control surfaces, landing gear and engine mount with a 0-360.

Would you consider these NOT in compliance with the rule or are the modifications enough to consider them within the limits.

--Brian
Brian,
When I go to do certifications on aircraft like that, they have to provide a completed Fabrication and Assembly checklist to show they meet the "Major Portion" requirement. There is a policy letter or a letter of interpretation (I forget which) that says you can't count any effort on previously certified components in the checklist. If they can get up to the 51% of tasks without counting work on those items they are eligible for E-AB. If not, their only option is Exhibition. I know of at least one airplane (unfortunately no longer around after a crash several years ago) where the owner got E-AB for a Clip Wing Monocoupe using the fuselage for a 90A. The FAA made him surrender that certificate and gave him an Exhibition certificate. I suspect there were some threats involved to get him to surrender the E-AB certificate.
 
I’m watching some of our EAA Chapter members “build” their experiment airplanes using quick build kits ( mostly RVs). The wings and fuselage come mostly assembled and they don’t manufacture anything. They are basically buying finished parts and assemble the airplane. I understand the regulations (I think), but from a practical point of view I don’t see why you can’t take a fuselage and wings and build an airplane with many mods. You would do more manufacturing than assembling a kit airplane.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
I tend to agree but the "quick build" kits go through the FAA kit evaluation process and are approved that way. Any time you use prior structures or use "commercial assistance" or a kit that hasn't gone through the kit evaluation process you are required to use the fabrication and assembly checklist. The applicants build log needs to support what is in the checklist. It is just the way it is. As a DAR, I'm bound to follow the regulations and policy when doing certification work.
 
Read the article in the recent KitPlanes about 2 weeks to build a Carbon Cub. Making one rib satisfies one of the requirements. Cutting out carbon fiber another, pushing a button on a press a third. What a farce. The experimental Carbon Cub is ASSEMBLED wit certified parts.
 
I don’t want to give a wrong impression here, I like and support the experimental airplane kit industry. It puts a lot of very capable airplanes out on the market and makes it affordable for many people to owns new airplanes. I just hope some of the equipment will be allowed to be used on our airplanes and hopefully will loosen up the regulations that are holding us down.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
 
I don’t want to give a wrong impression here, I like and support the experimental airplane kit industry. It puts a lot of very capable airplanes out on the market and makes it affordable for many people to owns new airplanes. I just hope some of the equipment will be allowed to be used on our airplanes and hopefully will loosen up the regulations that are holding us down.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z
No kidding. Like autopilots... I proved to myself I, by myself, can hand-fly from COI to OSH in one day (12 hours or so), and a week later return to COI (13 hours or so) again in one day.

An autopilot would have made this so much more comfortable. And, probably would have kept me from inadvertently busting the Restricted over Fort Knox, and going through some very stressful moments with the FAA a couple weeks later.

I just don't understand the logic to allow low cost autopilot hardware on a home-built plane, and not allow that same hardware to be used on a vintage Certified plane. Makes no sense.
 
No kidding. Like autopilots... I proved to myself I, by myself, can hand-fly from COI to OSH in one day (12 hours or so), and a week later return to COI (13 hours or so) again in one day.

An autopilot would have made this so much more comfortable. And, probably would have kept me from inadvertently busting the Restricted over Fort Knox, and going through some very stressful moments with the FAA a couple weeks later.

I just don't understand the logic to allow low cost autopilot hardware on a home-built plane, and not allow that same hardware to be used on a vintage Certified plane. Makes no sense.
Trio, from the STC group, told me that they are interested in adding the PA22 to their 2 axis autopilot AML. We should let them know if we are interested. I would think the installation on a PA22 would be the same for most early Pipers.
 
Likely as an Experimental Exhibition. It would not qualify as an Experimental Amateur Built! Any work done on a component that was previously installed on a certified aircraft does not count towards the "major portion" requirement of 21.191(g). That work is considered Part 43 Maintenance, not fabrication and assembly. Keep in mind when you say EXPERIMENTAL, there are 9 different types of EXPERIMENTAL certificates each with different requirements and limitations.
I beg to differ with that statement ............ Any work done ............... There seems to be a some contradictory statements in the AC 20-27G concerning the use of "parts" from a previously flying aircraft ........... Can you show me where I'm wrong?

From the AC 20-27G .......

11
d. Use of Salvaged Assemblies from Type-Certificated Aircraft. The use of used or salvaged assemblies (for example, landing gear, horizontal stabilizer, and engine mount) from type-certificated aircraft is permitted, as long as they are in a condition for safe operation. However—
(1) You should contact your local FAA MIDO or FSDO prior to using a major assembly or sub assembly, such as wings, fuselage, or tail assembly from a type-certificated aircraft. As an amateur builder, you should be aware that when building your aircraft, the excessive use of major assemblies or sub assemblies from type-certificated aircraft would most likely render it ineligible for certification under § 21.191(g).
(2) You will not receive credit for work done on, or the use of, salvaged major assemblies or sub assemblies when determining whether your amateur-built aircraft has met the major portion requirement. This would include any “rebuilding” or “alteration” activities to return these components to an airworthy condition.
(3) All fabrication, installation, and assembly tasks on the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009) that you’ve completed by the use of used or salvaged assemblies can only be annotated in the “Mfr Kit/Part/Component” column.


This is sort of contradictory to the AC 20-27G, page 11, d, 2 ............. concerning "rebuild" or "alteration" and where it pays to find a Fed or DAR that recognizes the paragraph in 8130.2J, Page 15-5, (4) .............................. some will, some won't.

From the FAA's 8130.2J (what Feds and DARs are to use as a guideline) It states you CAN use a portion of another aircraft and get PARTIAL credit for the EAB 51% ruling.

(4) When Builders Use Articles from Other Aircraft. The use of used or salvaged articles, including military surplus articles, from other aircraft is permitted if they are in a condition for safe operation; however, all fabrication, installation, and assembly tasks accomplished with used or salvaged articles will be credited to the “Mfr Kit/Part/Component” column on the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist. No credit will be given toward the major-portion requirement for work on these salvaged articles. This includes any “rebuilding” or “restoring” activities to return these articles to an airworthy condition. Assembly credit MAY be given in those cases where used or salvaged articles are assembled with PORTIONS of the aircraft fabricated and assembled by the builder.

I understand the Feds want to stop folks from throwing together some junkyard parts and calling it an EAB. That's understandable. But some take the 20-27G statements to mean you can't use anything. This needs to be written, or just amended, for clarification. It's how airplanes have always evolved! Taylors, Pipers and even the Pitts S1 came from a J3 rear fuselage section.

The two airplanes hit hardest by this confusion is the Breezy and the Stretched Pacer (by whatever name). It makes zero sense that you can't use the front part of a damaged Tri Pacer fuselage, build an extended tail section for it and qualify for EAB. Yet, you can buy a ready made fuselage from a supplier and you're golden.
 
The quote from 8130.2 above is the key. Any fabrication done on structures from prior aircraft doesn’t count when filling out the checklist. Assembling that structure toothless can count as assembly. You just can’t count any fabrication.
 
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