Hand propping, every pilot should be competent

[Jim]

Hi,

......"I don't think you can prop the engine while sitting on the asphalt.'

Sure can, I've done mine many many times. I have a tow hook I'd usually have something close to fasten to while starting, then get in and pop the hook when ready to go. One thing that I don't like to see is the big leg swing some folks use. Throwing yourself out of balance right then doesn't sound smart to me.

 

[PACERGUY]

Re: Curiosity...What is the easy "correct procedure" for hand-propping an O-320 PA-22 (nose-wheel) outside any FBO sitting on the asphalt?

Just like anything in aviation learn and practice how to do it before you need to do it. Go find a few friends/instructors experienced in hand propping then go out on a quiet day away from everything that can distract you and figure it out for your plane. If you don't know how your planed will react I would tie down a PA 22 even with a pilot at the controls because the brakes are not always the best. So once properly secured or pilot in plane with good brakes. find a way to secure door open (not just the little latch on the strut) Prop will blow door closed and now you have another issue. Now figure out what your plane likes. Most any 0320 in proper condition will fire with just a few blades pulled through. If you are having to spin the prop several times with a starter your priming procedure is wrong, a mag or other problem that needs to be addressed. Do not try to prime by pumping the throttle this just fills the air box with gas and can lead to a fire. Use the primer, how much depends on engine/temp/hot or cold. Throttle should be forward just a bit. Prop must be properly indexed, Once primed you can pull through for 2 blades with mags off then go left mag hot and spin the prop from behind if possible. No need for big leg up hard arm throw just rotated it down past TDC if all is right it will fire. If not try again, then again or prime one or two strokes. Spin wash repeat until it starts. Once it starts smoothly move back under the strut and into the plane. Get it running smoothly then go to idle and untie. A few tricks for being on your own. Once you know how to get it started on the first or second blade with the mags hot I pull the mixture all the way out. The plane will start and I can get to the controls and adjust mixture/idle before it stops. Carry plastic RV chocks on a rope and chock the front of the wheels before you start. Once you are squared away pull the chocks into the cabin. Position the plane on a uphill grade with Chocks/rocks/logs behind the wheels also works. I seldom tie my cub down if I need to hand prop but it is easy to get to the controls and I know how it will react with the mixture pulled. The key to all of this is not just reading or talking to people but going out and doing it for how ever many times it takes that you are comfortable with the procedure. A properly running engine is key!!
DENNY

 

[Steve Pierce]

Someone on the brakes and I like to stand behind the prop with left hand on the cowl and flip the prop with my right. Have flipped them from the front as well. As noted above point it away from anything but having someone competent on the brakes should solve any issues, chocks and or parking brake help as well. Think, think, think.

I got drug across my ramp by a 7ECA Citabria many years ago until it hit my dumpster. Cost me a lift strut. Also tagged a hangar with my Clipper wing many years earlier.

 

[Pacer42Z]

I have about 450 hours in a Champ. No starter and no parking brake. Used chocks only, except when the engine wouldn’t start after the second pull. Then I tied the tail down.
I had to hand prop my Pacer twice over the last 26 years. I always carry three pieces of rope with me in case I have to tie down the airplane somewhere. When I hand propped the Pacer I used chocks, parking brake and tied the tail down.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

 

[akflyer]

I don't think you can prop the engine while sitting on the asphalt.

Am I the only one that gets the humor here? Can't prop it sitting on the asphalt, would need to at least be standing up....

Propping was early on in my flight lessons as was moose hunter stalls (accelerated cross controlled stalls) and off airport ops from ALMOST day 1. I sure am glad that the pioneers didn't shy away from the simple task of propping a plane. Everyone learns different though and while you might not be comfortable doing hard core off airport work or propping a plane, I am just as uncomfortable flying into big cities and congested airspace and having to talk to center/approach/ departure etc. You might think it's simple because it's all you have ever done.

Same with those of us who cut our teeth off airport in remote areas without the luxury of an FBO handy to jump the plane etc., we think that propping the plane or doing whatever bush repairs are needed to get home is just simple everyday things. That being said, I am not as spry as I used to be, and my shoulders have sustained way too many highspeed get offs (spectacular wrecks) when testing and training for sled racing, so I now carry a jumper pack that will save my shoulders in the event that I leave the master on and drain the battery. With a little training and some common sense (that one is the big one) its completely safe to prop a plane in just about any and every environment from float ops to pavement to gravel bars and ski ops (glare ice on skis can get sketchy AF but can still be done with relative safety).

 

[N2709P]

The FAA is very specific in their AC that they consider hand propping to be a TWO person operation. This means a qualified person in the cockpit, even when the aircraft is properly tied down. Anything otherwise is considered by the FAA to be “careless and reckless operation”. They will write a violation for this action. If it were my FBO that the aircraft was being hand propped at, I would not allow it without following the AC guidelines. There is usually an instructor or other willing pilot around to sit in the aircraft. The liability from an accident or incident is just too great. Why should the FBO be exposed to this liability by you? How much damage do you think that your PA-20 could do to that $60M G-650 sitting on the ramp minding its own business.
There is no AC guidance for hand propping an aircraft engine from behind the prop. You have to curl your fingers over the trailing edge of the prop and that is a real safety issue. That is when fingers get broken, shoulders wrenched and individuals thrown off the floats. Propping from the front, you use open hands. Do not curl your fingers over the prop blade. Easy to do on a C-65, not so much on an O-320 With its higher compression. Even the military used some sort of starter mechanism on the higher HP engines in the Ryan’s, Stearman’s and Waco’s.
After having a very experienced “old timer” friend die while propping his Aeronca Chief, I put an electric starter on my Ryan PT-22 and will have an electric starter on my J-3 when it is finished.
We all do what has to be done. I have personally hand propped aircraft from a J-3 to a Twin Beech, including some rather nasty acro aircraft. I have watched a guy in Alaska try to prop his PA-18 on a frozen lake. After falling down on the ice a few times under the aircraft, he gave up and came inside for some hot coffee. The God’s were watching him that morning as the engine never fired. And yes, I have propped a Cub on floats from behind the prop. I have a friend that propped his Bellanca Viking on an icy ramp and lost his left hand. The aircraft did not do so well to the FBO building either.
I am older now and try to stay away from those stupid pilot tricks.
Blue Skies!
N2709P

 

[PACERGUY]

The FAA is very specific in their AC that they consider hand propping to be a TWO person operation. This means a qualified person in the cockpit, even when the aircraft is properly tied down. Anything otherwise is considered by the FAA to be “careless and reckless operation”. They will write a violation for this action. If it were my FBO that the aircraft was being hand propped at, I would not allow it without following the AC guidelines. There is usually an instructor or other willing pilot around to sit in the aircraft. The liability from an accident or incident is just too great. Why should the FBO be exposed to this liability by you? How much damage do you think that your PA-20 could do to that $60M G-650 sitting on the ramp minding its own business.
There is no AC guidance for hand propping an aircraft engine from behind the prop. You have to curl your fingers over the trailing edge of the prop and that is a real safety issue. That is when fingers get broken, shoulders wrenched and individuals thrown off the floats. Propping from the front, you use open hands. Do not curl your fingers over the prop blade. Easy to do on a C-65, not so much on an O-320 With its higher compression. Even the military used some sort of starter mechanism on the higher HP engines in the Ryan’s, Stearman’s and Waco’s.
After having a very experienced “old timer” friend die while propping his Aeronca Chief, I put an electric starter on my Ryan PT-22 and will have an electric starter on my J-3 when it is finished.
We all do what has to be done. I have personally hand propped aircraft from a J-3 to a Twin Beech, including some rather nasty acro aircraft. I have watched a guy in Alaska try to prop his PA-18 on a frozen lake. After falling down on the ice a few times under the aircraft, he gave up and came inside for some hot coffee. The God’s were watching him that morning as the engine never fired. And yes, I have propped a Cub on floats from behind the prop. I have a friend that propped his Bellanca Viking on an icy ramp and lost his left hand. The aircraft did not do so well to the FBO building either.
I am older now and try to stay away from those stupid pilot tricks.
Blue Skies!
N2709P

OK now the light has come on!! Everyone posts "Don't put your fingers over the prop" try as I might I can't get the friction needed on the FLAT back side of the prop with my hand to make it past the compression stroke. Now if I did prop from the front you have the curvature of the prop to help with friction. From the back I always try to use gloves for most everything and I just use the tips of my fingers over the top of the prop for grip. As hand come down it also comes away. I grew up on a farm and spent a lot of my live around stuff that spins so understanding the power of metal in motion is second nature to me.

 

[Steve Pierce]

The FAA is very specific in their AC

Do you know where to find this AC?

 

[Rene]

I have personally hand propped aircraft from a J-3 to a Twin Beech, including some rather nasty acro aircraft . . ..

I have an old Air Quebec pilot's manual that contains instructions on hand propping a Wright 9-cylinder radial (it involves three men and a long rope). But have personally never tried it.

 

[dgapilot]

OK now the light has come on!! Everyone posts "Don't put your fingers over the prop" try as I might I can't get the friction needed on the FLAT back side of the prop with my hand to make it past the compression stroke. Now if I did prop from the front you have the curvature of the prop to help with friction. From the back I always try to use gloves for most everything and I just use the tips of my fingers over the top of the prop for grip. As hand come down it also comes away. I grew up on a farm and spent a lot of my live around stuff that spins so understanding the power of metal in motion is second nature to me.

Just to keep nomenclature correct, the “flat” side of a prop is the FACE and the curved airfoil side is the BACK. Everything is based on the pilots point of view when sitting in the airplane. The flat side is what faces him and the curved side is on the back!

 

[N2709P]

Steve, the information is actually contained in what the FAA calls a “Handbook”. They used to be called an Advisory Circular. This handbook is FAA-H-8083-3C , Airplane Flying Handbook. The hand propping advice is in chapter 2, paragraph 16. Every pilot of all levels should have this handbook in their library. While not regulatory in nature, the NTSB, thru litigation, has determined that failure to follow the advice contained within constitutes careless and reckless operation of an aircraft.
Dave, you are correct in the definition of the propeller. That is why I say “the front or the back”. Many years ago, during an owner assisted annual, I told the owner to sand the face of the propeller so that we could repaint it. I came back to find the beautifully polished front of the prop sanded. I learned a lesson in communication and proper supervision on that one,
Blue Skies!
N2709P

 

[PA-16]

Here are the pages you are talkin about https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook

And here is an even better book, AC61-21A https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/71499

 

[PA-16]

Out of the best chapter in the AC61-21, chapter 17 this is also in Stick and Rudder, another great book

 

[PACERGUY]

The information in the AC is good to know and follow when able but the reality is the type of flying some of us do makes it very impractical to follow. That is most likely why it is not regulatory in nature. If you do screw up trying to hand prop by yourself and have aircraft damage as was done recently at Lake hood strip when a Cessna 150 decided to play tag with a couple other planes the it was hand propped without being tied or chocked I would suspect you may be violated. But I have never heard it done for simply hand propping by yourself.
DENNY

 

[Steve Pierce]

Steve, the information is actually contained in what the FAA calls a “Handbook”. They used to be called an Advisory Circular. This handbook is FAA-H-8083-3C , Airplane Flying Handbook. The hand propping advice is in chapter 2, paragraph 16. Every pilot of all levels should have this handbook in their library. While not regulatory in nature, the NTSB, thru litigation, has determined that failure to follow the advice contained within constitutes careless and reckless operation of an aircraft.
Dave, you are correct in the definition of the propeller. That is why I say “the front or the back”. Many years ago, during an owner assisted annual, I told the owner to sand the face of the propeller so that we could repaint it. I came back to find the beautifully polished front of the prop sanded. I learned a lesson in communication and proper supervision on that one,
Blue Skies!
N2709P

Thanks, I found it yesterday but did not know it because I got to chapter 15 and gave up. Common sense for some but an excellent refresher. https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/f...als/aviation/airplane_handbook/03_afh_ch2.pdf

The "careless and reckless operation of an aircraft" is a catch all for the FAA. They tried that one on me many years ago but after 5 years they were forced to concede. It was a very unpleasant time but very educational. Makes for a great but rather long story around the campfire as well. The movie Sully was sort of a flashback to those events.

 

[Coltasaurus]

I appreciate the reminder of these publications. I haven’t read any of these in a long time!

 

[pa20]

Steve, I am not talking about the starter removal. I was discussing an inop starter. If an item is mounted on the aircraft or engine, not temporary or portable in nature, it either needs to be operative or properly deferred.
N2709P

If the starter is not part of the TCDS for the engine, than this is not accurate.

 

[N2709P]

Mark, we will have to agree to disagree. Using your line of reasoning, you have just saved all the rag wing Pipers a lot of money. The rudder is not called out specifically in the Piper TDCS either. Just remove it and fly away. No rudder AD to comply with since there is not a rudder installed. Please show me FAA guidance that allows an Standard Certificated aircraft to be operated with an item non-operational or removed without proper deferment or a ferry permit. The aircraft must be in its original or properly modified condition to be airworthy. If it was originally certified with a starter, aileron trim tab or other item installed later, via STC, 337 or logbook entry, they must be installed and operational or properly deferred. This question has been asked at almost every IA renewal meeting that I have attended for the last 50 years and the answer was always the same. Don’t take my word for this, call your local FSDO and talk to a PMI.
PS; Steve, this type of unsubstantiated opinion is exactly what I was commenting about previously. It amazes me the misconceptions and improper interpretations that I have that need to be corrected. It is a constant learning process.
Blue Skies!
N2709P

 

[dgapilot]

If the starter is not part of the TCDS for the engine, than this is not accurate.

On the PA-16, the entire electrical system (including the starter) was optional. The no electrical PA-16 didn’t even have the ring gear!

 

[Steve Pierce]

So all Tri-Pacers need a trim tab on the ailerons because the IPC shows it even though that IPC is not FAA approved? The TCDS also lists vacuum pumps, wheel fairings but I don't see the starter or the generator listed there. I do believe that the rudder is required equipment via the minimum operating standards. I guess someone will have to call their FSDO and speak to their PMI to get clarification on this and while you are at it you might call several FSDO and see if there is a difference in opinions. I know of a lot of operators in Alaska who get inspected pretty thoroughly that do not have starters or alternators. I will have to ask them if they have special operational guide lines to operate that way. I will leave that one to someone else to figure out, all my airplanes have starters and a charging system except the J3 and the Vagabond. None of the airplanes I maintain are missing those items either.

*****Disclaimer, If you are going to operate your aircraft without a starter or a charging system Please call your Flight Standards District Office and make sure they don't have an issue with it. ****

With that being said can we get a show of hands of everyone who wants to remove their starter and charging system from their Short Wing?

 

[PA-16]

On the PA-16, the entire electrical system (including the starter) was optional. The no electrical PA-16 didn’t even have the ring gear!

I am still not clear on whether I am breaking the law by flying at night with only nav lights on my Clipper, that's all it had when it was rebuilt 30 years ago, and that's all it still has today. The anticollision light requirement reg is clear as mud to me.

 

[Steve Pierce]

I am still not clear on whether I am breaking the law by flying at night with only nav lights on my Clipper, that's all it had when it was rebuilt 30 years ago, and that's all it still has today. The anticollision light requirement reg is clear as mud to me.

Search it on this website. There is an AOPA legal opinion posted.

 

[N2709P]

That is why I clarified my answer that if an item was added after original certification. If it was added via STC, 337 or other approved method, it now becomes legally part of the aircraft and unless you have an approved MEL or CDL for that item on that aircraft, it has to be operational for its intended function or properly deferred. You also cannot just remove the item without proper documentation for its removal. Some items, such as installing an engine driven generator system in a J-3 are irreversible. The aircraft will always need to comply with any regulation that encompasses an engine driven electrical system. Even if the engine electrical system is properly removed. Not my rules, not my interpretation. When I exercise my Inspection Authorization, I have to put on my FAA hat. To do otherwise would be in violation of my authorization authority and I personally believe it would be doing a disservice to my customer. If the customer can provide me with substantiating data for the change, I will do everything possible to help. If they want me to turn a blind eye to an issue and I am unable to convince them otherwise, I suggest that they find a different inspector. I have been an A&P for 54 years and an IA holder for 50. I have never had a notice of investigation or violation of the FAR’s or lost an aircraft due to improper maintenance. I work very hard to ensure that trend continues.
To throw fuel onto the fire, how is it that Piper was unable to certify the PA-20 with the O-320 engine and at least two other companies have been able too? What do these companies know and what did they show the FAA certification division that Pug’s engineers and flight test crews could not? Some of that Alaska, wink, wink, nod? The preamble to the 1955 PA-20/PA-22 pilots manual stated that the PA-20-150 certification was due shortly. Never happened. If I was flying a PA-22/20-150 I sure would like to know why Piper could not complete the certification. Just an enquiring mind.
Blue Skies!
N2709P