PA 20 or PA-22/20 Sign-Off

[davidpatton111]

It was recommended I post this in the Public Forum...this is a repost:

"So here is my situation... I've purchased my PA-20 but have been unable to move it from Georgia to Virginia because I can't seem to find the time to get So here is my situation... I've purchased my PA-20 but have been unable to move it from Georgia to Virginia because I can't seem to find the time to get instruction in it due to weather, instructor availability, etc. Each time I have driven the 10 hours the weather changes and I end up going back home.

"Does anyone have a PA-20 or PA-22/20 conventional conversion near me that is also an instructor? I know it's asking a lot. If I could get signed off in any PA-20 then I can simply go back to Georgia and fly it back. No more risking a long trip for failed weather.

I used to own a PA-16 and have over 250 hours tailwheel. I have not flown tailwheel in about 2 years. But insurance just wants a sign-off with no set number of hours. in it due to weather, instructor availability, etc. Each time I have driven the 10 hours the weather changes and I end up going back home.

Does anyone have a PA-20 near me that is also an instructor? I know it's asking a lot. If I could get signed off in any PA-20 then I can simply go back to Georgia and fly it back. No more risking a long trip for failed weather.

I used to own a PA-16 and have over 250 hours tailwheel. I have not flown tailwheel in about 2 years"

 

[PA-16]

If you look in your logbook you will find your tailwheel endorsement. If the insurance company does not accept 250 hours in a PA16 than find a good insurance company. Unless the flaps and shorter aileron are their concern? I would still look around, I had a big 0 ZERO short wing time when I got my Clipper and the insurance company did not give me a problem at all, I had over 500 hours in various Piper Cubs though, maybe there is a magic number you have to meet? Whats the company giving you the problem?

 

[Gilbert Pierce]

I had 200 hours in a KitFox. When I bought my Clipper Avemco immediately insured me based on my tailwheel time. Three years later I bought a Vagabond. Agin no problem with the insurance.

 

[Jspey]

When I bought my 22/20 I didn't even have a tailwheel endorsement yet, but insurance didn't seem to care. They did want me to get 5 hours dual and 20 hours PIC in a PA22 nosedragger though, which I already had.

 

[davidpatton111]

When I bought my 22/20 I didn't even have a tailwheel endorsement yet, but insurance didn't seem to care. They did want me to get 5 hours dual and 20 hours PIC in a PA22 nosedragger though, which I already had.

I had several quotes. The best I could do, AVEMCO:

”Prior to solo, must receive not less than 1 hours of dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft or one of the same make and model. They must also obtain written approval from that Certificated Flight Instructor who is current in make and model.”

 

[Gilbert Pierce]

Wow! That’s a change. Avemco was recently bought out by a conglomerate I believe.

A friend of mine bought a Pacer. He couldnt find an instructor to do 10 hours with him. He convinced them to let him do 10 hours with me in the Clipper. I am not an instructor but have over 2500 hours in the Clipper and Vagabond. Right from the first landing he was better Clipper pilot than me.

 

[Steve Pierce]

David, you might call them and plead your case. I have seen them wave the checkout when pressed.

 

[RRHall]

Where are you located David? I know of at least one person with a PA-20 at Chesapeake, KCPK.

 

[wzm]

I'm in a similar boat with a PA-16 (one hour of time required before the insurance starts, and it doesn't need to be with a CFI), and I'm based in WV. If anyone within a state or two of here has a Clipper, I'd love to fly with you before flying my plane home. I'm more then willing to make a day of it and fly my Pitts with anyone who could help.

 

[PA-16]

I'm in a similar boat with a PA-16 (one hour of time required before the insurance starts, and it doesn't need to be with a CFI), and I'm based in WV. If anyone within a state or two of here has a Clipper, I'd love to fly with you before flying my plane home. I'm more then willing to make a day of it and fly my Pitts with anyone who could help.

wheres your clipper? did you get it home?

 

[wzm]

My Clipper is in Oregon, and I should probably start a thread about that, but I think the inspection should be done in the next few weeks.

I bought a plane that had been sitting for a few years, following the owner passing away. I paid a good price ($21k), knowing that the fabric and steel was all in good shape, and that the engine had only a couple hundred hours since a rebuild, but that the paperwork would be difficult.

Unfortunately, the owner had the aircraft in a partnership with his son, and they shared a name. The FAA found the partnership between two people with the same name, one of whom was deceased, very difficult to process, so I had to pass the paperwork back and forth with them a half dozen times (with 30-45 days of waiting each time) before they transferred the registration. Every single time I'd get the forms back with a note that said "Please add a Sr. on this line", and the next time they'd return the paperwork, it would say "Please strike out the Sr. on this line and return the paperwork".

After I finished the paperwork, I found a very thorough IA to go through the plane, and replace every piece of rubber, get sealed struts on it, and make sure the fuel system was in good shape. Midway through the annual / fix up, he spotted that when the airplane was restored in the late 1980s, the new panel had been completely wired with automotive wiring, and without normal aircraft circuit breakers. He asked around to other IAs in his circle, and they all agreed that if he signed off on it, and I had an accident in the plane, he'd be in trouble, so it's getting rewired now. I went into this expecting to spend a ton of money on the first annual, so that's not the end of the world. I didn't buy a Clipper because I was looking for an inexpensive airplane, I bought one because I wanted a four seat tail wheel plane with sticks.

 

[PA-16]

Where in OR? My brother is out there and is an IA. Enjoy the trip home, watch out for weather.. I took my Clipper on a few several hundred mile trips and learned the hard way that an attitude or some sort of AHRS is a good idea. Had to fly with only airspeed, VSI, altimeter and turn coordinator in unforcast crap vis wx, fortunately a Clipper is a slow plane and kept in trim is very easy to keep under control with just those instruments. Winter TAFs up north are about as accurate as nothing LOL. I bought a GRT Mini GA portable AHRS right after that, its stand alone and can give you a synthetic approach ILS style to any airport even a 2000' grass strip if its in the FAA database, does much more than dynon or garmin AHRS.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Where in OR? My brother is out there and is an IA. Enjoy the trip home, watch out for weather.. I took my Clipper on a few several hundred mile trips and learned the hard way that an attitude or some sort of AHRS is a good idea. Had to fly with only airspeed, VSI, altimeter and turn coordinator in unforcast crap vis wx, fortunately a Clipper is a slow plane and kept in trim is very easy to keep under control with just those instruments. Winter TAFs up north are about as accurate as nothing LOL. I bought a GRT Mini GA portable AHRS right after that, its stand alone and can give you a synthetic approach ILS style to any airport even a 2000' grass strip if its in the FAA database, does much more than dynon or garmin AHRS.

Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me. I have flown my Clipper all over the country and one time I had to descend through a thin layer because I was fat, dumb and happy on top and didn't pay attention to the holes closing up. I trimmed the airplane for a slight descent but once in the soup it rocked me all over the place. Broke out with 2k feet between me and the ground but rattled my cage. Love the AV30 in my Dad's Clipper but flight planning and being aware of options is the way I fly cross country in our little airplanes. Two friends have taken me to do various airplane repairs across the country in their Garmin equipped Bonanzas and those are a game changer.

 

[PA-16]

The AHRS is an emergency use tool to help you stay alive in the event of unforcast IMC like I encountered and described in that post above, if you live where it snows the TAFs are not to be trusted for VFR, that is the lesson I learned that day, it happens alot, they forcast VMC and during that time period the ceiling and vis becomes IMC.
You hit the nail on the head, always have a way out. The TAF might indicate VMC but when it goes IMC a way out is an AHRS like your dads Av30 or the much more capable GRT mini. A simple vacuum attitude gyro is a great tool as well, but for planes like a Clipper that never had a vacuum system the standard attitude indicator is not available, so I bought the GRT Mini https://grtavionics.com/product/mini-efis-2nd-generation/

The GRT mini is more than just an AHRS like the limit of the Av30, the GRT has synthetic approach capability that is nice feature for emergency backup, provides two options, fly through boxes as shown here or an on screen flight director instead of boxes you fly through, either way it guides you down to the runway. The LNAV and VNAV has always been accurate to the point that if it was all I had in an emergency I would have 100% faith in using it.
.

 

[Steve Pierce]

We were coming back from a long weekend in Arkansas in two Super Cubs. The ceiling started coming down and all of a sudden my wingman disappeared. He pulled up through the low over cast and was clear above. I have a digital artificial horizon in my Cub but I am not doing that. I already had the airport I had previously passed in standby and interestingly enough as I started my turn out of the diminishing visibility Cathy gave me the same identifier.

I think of that kid that killed himself in the Appalachian's in a Pacer a few years ago. I would rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than in the air wishing I was on the ground.

 

[PA-16]

I would rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than in the air wishing I was on the ground.

Words to live by.

The problem is when we need to hear that the most gethomeites creeps in and takes over... killed lots of people.
Maybe more BAI training should be required for any cert without an instrument rating, and during BFRs. With everything available today no one should lose control of aircraft because of inadvertant flight into IMC, competent in BAI you should be able to fly and declare an emergency and get back on the ground. Sometimes the wx goes to crap so quick that getting on the ground could still be difficult, so back to preflight planning and IF at all marginal SEE ABOVE and try not to let gethomeites drive you into going.

Another good one to remember, having a placard in front of your eyes that says "DONT DO ANYTHING STUPID."