Possible Rudder Airworthiness Directive

rsrguy3 said:
And remember they're here to help...
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Riiiight! That’s very evident, especially at the Anchorage FAA office. Call to make an appointment, arrive and it’s a brick building, probably blast proof. At the first steel door, a small white button and speaker…probably a camera somewhere. And that first steel has this tiny wired security glass window high up on the door for like 5’10” tall people to peer through. That window is so tiny you couldn’t stuff a fat Chihuahua through it if you could bust it out with a sledge hammer. Get through the first door and enter a small brick cell with another steel door with the same tiny security glass window. Peer through the window….nothing, no people, just another space. I’m like where’s the receptionist? Don’t see any gas jets, nozzles or drains in the floor. It’s feels like entering a maximum security prison or solitary confinement……something. Makes you wonder what’s going on behind those doors. I’m certain the people behind those doors feel safe…but what about us zombies who need something simple…are we safe in there?
 
We are trying to gather more data about the Piper rudders and total time in service and any related failures. Please go to this link and complete the survey and hit submit. Information we are looking for is total time in service, engine and prop, IE 74 DM 6 -58, when the tail surfaces were last covered, and failures. So, you will need to look in your logbooks for some information, but this is the only way we can prove to the FAA there is not a problem. Both of the accident aircraft were not airworthy when the rudders failed.

https://shortwingpiperclub.org/vintage-fabric-piper-survey-2/
 
Wag-builder said:
Both of the accident aircraft were not airworthy when the rudders failed.
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Can you explain why they were not airworthy. I had a very long conversation with one of the.pilots and am curious why his airplane wasn't airworthy.
 
The TCDS for the PA-12, A-780, under section 204, requires Piper ventral fin 11030 to be installed if on floats. The STC SA1-644 to install EDO 89-2000 floats on the PA-14, requires the seaplane fin in accordance with item 204 of Aircraft Specification A-780

Neither plane was equipped with the required items per TCDS.
 
Would you be interested in getting survey info from British and French Piper owners?
I have contacts for both the UK Vintage Piper Aircraft Club and French Piper Club France.
TonyN
 
tnowak said:
Would you be interested in getting survey info from British and French Piper owners?
I have contacts for both the UK Vintage Piper Aircraft Club and French Piper Club France.
TonyN
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YES!!! We want as much information as possible about the fabric covered Piper rudders. So, this includes the Cubs and Super Cubs, PA-12 & PA-14, The J-2 and PA-25 are different rudders and does not apply, but everything else and every location!

Thank you and please spread the word.
 
Wag-builder said:
We are trying to gather more data about the Piper rudders and total time in service and any related failures. Please go to this link and complete the survey and hit submit. Information we are looking for is total time in service, engine and prop, IE 74 DM 6 -58, when the tail surfaces were last covered, and failures. So, you will need to look in your logbooks for some information, but this is the only way we can prove to the FAA there is not a problem. Both of the accident aircraft were not airworthy when the rudders failed.

https://shortwingpiperclub.org/vintage-fabric-piper-survey-2/
Click to expand...

Done and submitted!
 
Completed the survey. My aircraft was last recovered in March 94, has flown 1773 hours since. 150hp O-320 A2B installed at that time, has a beacon on the rudder. No evidence of cracking on my stripped rudder.
 
Competed the survey as an Australian owners perspective. I have just recovered my rudder and ran a camera up the interior of the post. All in good condition.
Hope this may be of some help.
 
Kenlsa said:
Competed the survey as an Australian owners perspective. I have just recovered my rudder and ran a camera up the interior of the post. All in good condition.
Hope this may be of some help.
Click to expand...

Thank you, guys please keep the information coming this is very helpful! It does not matter where in the world you are located; it is the information about the flight hours, and configuration that we need!
 
Can I just clarify how the survey responses are sent and received by you?
I completed the on-line form (for G-BCVB) and sent it, but there wasn't any acknowledgement of me sending, nor a field to have entered my e-mail address in the survey form for any sort of e-mailed acknowledgement..
Also, in the text of the survey website it says to e-mail the form to "SWPC@cinci.rr.com"...

Just wanted to ensure the survey and form process is working properly before I circulate.
TonyN
 
TonyN Yes, it works exactly like any other survey, input your information and click submit and it is transmitted. We did get your data and so far, you have the highest time Vagabond! The SWPC@cinci.rr.com is the mailbox the survey is delivered to. You can also send emails directly to that address. If you want to include your email address, you can just include it with your name of in the block for explanation.

Bottom line is, it is working, and we are getting the information. Thank you!!!
 
I submitted a lengthy comment yesterday, unfortunately it is too long to past here. Search the comments for one by me (David Schober) on December 18. Feel free to plagiarize as you see fit.
 
Wag-Builder,
Thanks!
I have only approx. 1000 hrs on my Vag but it was previously owned by the French national flying training org./club. They put lots of hours on the airframe between 1949 and 1972...
TonyN
 
Hey everyone, just a quick update. So far, we have 1% of the 31,000 fabric covered Piper aircraft providing information! Thank you to everyone and please pass it along to everyone you know. With over 1,000,000 flight hours and all configurations imaginable, there have only been three issues with any of the rudders so far.
1) PA-22-135 sitting on the ramp and the rudder got bent spanwise. I would love to know that story!
2&3) Both seaplanes, a PA-12 and a PA-22 on floats with corrosion of the trailing edge tube below the bottom rib.
 
[FONT=&quot]I read through a lot of the comments on this proposed AD. https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FAA-2023-1893/comments[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]You can Comment here. Deadline is Tuesday 2-20-2024 https://www.regulations.gov/document/FAA-2023-1893-0165/comment[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Afterwards I submitted my comment:[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I am an A&P/IA who has specialized in the maintenance, repair and restoration of tube and fabric Piper aircraft for almost 30 years. Having worked with the FAA, ACO and the Small Aircraft Directorate on issues effecting Aging Aircraft in the past I have to say that I have been very disappointed in the communication with the type clubs on this rudder issue. When you eat, sleep and breath these aircraft and spend lots of time insuring that they are flown, maintained and restored in the safest possible condition you hope you would be contacted when these type of issues come up as I personally have in the past. Some of these previous correspondences have resulted in SAIB, AD revisions and others were just general knowledge. It proved to me personally that this was not “us against them”. Nothing to do with this issue has made me feel that way.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Piper built in excess of 50k airplanes with this rudder. I have read the ACS dated 9-4-2020, NTSB AIR-22-02and the NTSB Aviation Investigation Final Reports for the aircraft listed in the preceding documents. Having maintained, repaired and rebuilt fabric covered aircraft for almost 30 years I have discovered there are lots of causes of failures. I am curious as to the history of the aircraft involved, modifications, history of repairs, etc. Way more questions than answers in the data provided.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Since this issue came up almost 4 years ago I have investigated several ways to both verify the integrity of the rudder and to reinforce it. A simple fixture can be fabricated to fit over the top of the rudder to attach a fish scale to or even a torque wrench to allow a pull test to a minimum standard. Also I have installed a 3/4”x.035” wall 4130 steel tube into several rudders to verify that it is both doable and to check the tightness of fit. It is doable and tight. Could even be held to the outside tube via Cherry rivets.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I would be curious to know the load on the rudder on any given model. Is a J3 with a 65 hp engine even close to the load put on the rudder of a PA12 with 180 hp, on floats with no ventral fin? Again, more questions than answers.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]This proposed AD will take years to comply with given the availability of rudders and experienced personnel to do the cover work. I would hope that the FAA takes all things into account and realizes that 2 or 3 incidence in a fleet of at least 30,000 aircraft is a probability of .0001 to .000066.[/FONT]
 
You know I’d like to think the FAA bureaucrats haven’t converted to administrative law enforcers with the same attitude many regulatory agencies now have wherein the regulatory agency is the final legal authority and do not care if they are hurting the industry or entities they are regulating.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
The Department of Transportation (FAA) has Administrative Law Judges you appeal to if you contest the FAA ruling on a violation. About 98% the they rule against the suspected miscreant.
 
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Speaking of rudder availability, I was under the impression that the PA-20 and 22 share the same rudder at the PA-18. Is it legal to use the Airframes Alaska PA-18 rudder on our shortwings? Given the seemingly real possibility that the FAA is going to move forward with this, I'd rather get my rudder on order now and be done with it. I'm fortunate enough to have an A&P in the area that has a good reputation with fabric aircraft so I can learn the covering process from him and have this ready to go come next annual.
 
I guess I can open my mouth now. Two engineers working for the Vintage division of EAA came to my hangar and we went over this rudder issue. I showed them my fix and they were skeptical as was the FAA engineer I suggested it to. However when I handed them a 7/8"x .035" was tube and a 3/4"x .035" wall tube they were pleasantly surprised at how tight they fit together. Last conversation I had with them was the possibility of doing some flight tests on my Super Cub and another one I maintain on floats with some instrumentation to see what the forces actually are. Also discussed a simple fixture and pull test with a fish scale or torque wrench as a pre-flight measure. Sharp guys and a lot of experience in aircraft structures. I talked to Steve Caruthers from the Short Wing Piper Club last Sunday as well and it sounds like the FAA has a full plate from engineers, a lawyer and lots of us maintainers and pilots.
 
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