Clayton Harper
Non-Member
Seabrook, TX
I can't get the Pacer in the air and do this too. What about we make up a checklist of things to do before becoming a SWP owner and after.
SB 819 Fuselage Door Frame Corrosion
- Thread starter Steve Pierce
- Start date
Graham, Texas, United States
Get a Rotor Broach and drill a few holes for inspection.
tnowak
MEMBER
Hampshire, England
When the SB first came out that is what I did, but with a normal (small) drill bit.
Nice bright metal on the tubes underneath with no signs of rust or anything.
Good idea, Clayton, about the checklist, especially for first time shortwing owners (or prospective owners).
Perhaps start with a list of all ADs and SBs per shortwing type?
TonyN
Nice bright metal on the tubes underneath with no signs of rust or anything.
Good idea, Clayton, about the checklist, especially for first time shortwing owners (or prospective owners).
Perhaps start with a list of all ADs and SBs per shortwing type?
TonyN
tnowak
MEMBER
Hampshire, England
Re: SB819 pieces
What about this style of checklist?
The attached is for the Vagabond and lists, I believe, all ADs, SBs and SLs etc. for the PA15 / PA17.
Feel free to edit as required.
Perhaps Steve can store this somewhere for future reference?
How about others putting together something similar for other shortwings?
TonyN
What about this style of checklist?
The attached is for the Vagabond and lists, I believe, all ADs, SBs and SLs etc. for the PA15 / PA17.
Feel free to edit as required.
Perhaps Steve can store this somewhere for future reference?
How about others putting together something similar for other shortwings?
TonyN
Harold Kroeker
FRIEND
Winnipeg, Canada
Note that AD 99-01-05 has been superseded by AD 2015-08-04. I'm surprised that there are not a bunch of engine ADs as well.
Attached is the AD list for my PA-16 Clipper. Please let me know if I missed any.
Attached is the AD list for my PA-16 Clipper. Please let me know if I missed any.
This is a scary thought, aluminium hinges.
Attachments
Graham, Texas, United States
I think it was the bracket attached to the hinge to the false spar.
Graham, Texas, United States
Thanks Tony. When I get some time I will post these in their own seperate thread.
Dwain
Non-Member
Texas Hill Country
Service Belletin 819 questions
So, I've been reading up on this service bulletin and it looks to me like it is a major PITA. I have a couple of questions so I am going to throw them out there. I read a lot of the posts on the SB, but didn't see these answers. If I missed them, point me in the right direction and I'll do more research.
1) I understand that this inspection calls for removing the metal on the doors, door frames and under the windshield. Can the inspection be done without removing any fabric (maybe the interior)?
2) For you A&P/IA Guys and Girls: How much would it cost (hours, not necessarily dollars) for you to do the inspection. I'm not talking about repairs, just look and give the owner a list of work that will be required.
3) after you do the inspection the first time, is there anything you can do to save labor on subsequent inspections (inspection ports, IDK)?
4) If this came out in 1986, it looks like roughly 30 years had gone by before the failures were occurring often enough to warrant the SB. Does that mean if you did this in the early to mid 90's you should be looking to schedule it again?
5) It looks like the Aussie version allowed x-raying (before the SB was cancelled) as a way of compliance. However, I think it says that the inspection (it doesn't differentiate between visual and x-ray) should be repeated every 5 years.
Just curious. - Dwain
So, I've been reading up on this service bulletin and it looks to me like it is a major PITA. I have a couple of questions so I am going to throw them out there. I read a lot of the posts on the SB, but didn't see these answers. If I missed them, point me in the right direction and I'll do more research.
1) I understand that this inspection calls for removing the metal on the doors, door frames and under the windshield. Can the inspection be done without removing any fabric (maybe the interior)?
2) For you A&P/IA Guys and Girls: How much would it cost (hours, not necessarily dollars) for you to do the inspection. I'm not talking about repairs, just look and give the owner a list of work that will be required.
3) after you do the inspection the first time, is there anything you can do to save labor on subsequent inspections (inspection ports, IDK)?
4) If this came out in 1986, it looks like roughly 30 years had gone by before the failures were occurring often enough to warrant the SB. Does that mean if you did this in the early to mid 90's you should be looking to schedule it again?
5) It looks like the Aussie version allowed x-raying (before the SB was cancelled) as a way of compliance. However, I think it says that the inspection (it doesn't differentiate between visual and x-ray) should be repeated every 5 years.
Just curious. - Dwain
Prosaria
Non-Member
PABV
Re: Service Belletin 819 questions
1. No, I don't think so. The sheet metal has to be ground off the tubing.
2. Most of the work is removing and replacing the sheet metal, tube repairs will likely be a rounding error on the total bill.
3, 4. Do it right and it shouldn't need another one for a long time.
5. Compliance with a SB is not required. You can do as much or as little as you would like using whatever means you would like to.
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1. No, I don't think so. The sheet metal has to be ground off the tubing.
2. Most of the work is removing and replacing the sheet metal, tube repairs will likely be a rounding error on the total bill.
3, 4. Do it right and it shouldn't need another one for a long time.
5. Compliance with a SB is not required. You can do as much or as little as you would like using whatever means you would like to.
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pistoncan
Non-Member
Vienna Mo
Excellent choice
Graham, Texas, United States
The channels cannot be removed with the fabric installed. There is nothing on the windshield, it is all retained in the boot cowl aluminum. One of those things to do at recover. The PDF of the Univair replacement channels on page 1 of this thread will give you an idea of where they are located.
Hernando, MS
Regarding paperwork, does the accomplishing of this SB require completing a FAA Form 337 for major repair (primarily) and/or alteration signed by an A&P/IA in Block 7? I'm thinking back to the shoulder harness installation thread whereby if you welded any kind of tab onto the structure, the FAA required a 337. Since you're cutting loose the sheetmetal from the tubing, even if the tube (aka structural member) is not damaged, welding the sheetmetal back on constitutes a "major" repair...
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Gilbert Pierce
MEMBER
Germantown, Tennessee 01TN
SB819 was done on my Clipper along with other tubing repairs.The 43.13 and SB819 were the approved data so block 3 on the 337 did not need the FSDO/FAA approval. The 337 went direct to OKC.
Since SB819 is non structural I could be comfortable with a log book entry as long as no repairs were needed under the sheet metal. In my case there was much rotted tubing hiding behind the sheet metal so that part was a major repair hence the 337.
Stating that SB819 was completed was included in the major repair documentation.
Since SB819 is non structural I could be comfortable with a log book entry as long as no repairs were needed under the sheet metal. In my case there was much rotted tubing hiding behind the sheet metal so that part was a major repair hence the 337.
Stating that SB819 was completed was included in the major repair documentation.
Graham, Texas, United States
Is all welding considered a major repair?
Clayton Harper
Non-Member
Seabrook, TX
I could read it, without it i being a major repair, if the sheet metal isn't structural. Call it fairing.
Hernando, MS
I could read it, without it i being a major repair, if the sheet metal isn't structural. Call it fairing.
I could see that as well IF you were welding on the "fairing" itself only, and then bolting the fairing to the airframe/tube. However, the sheetmetal removed as part of SB819 is WELDED to the airframe, thus it just involved primary structure... correct?
Hernando, MS
I've been doing some research, and I found this thread just to confuse the matter further: https://www.askbob.aero/content/welding
So if I take some sheetmetal off of a primary structure, and then put it back on using the same methods used in original manufacturing process, does that constitute a major repair? It certainly doesn't fall under any sort of alteration, but the fact that it could possibly alter the strength of the structural member... hmmm. I'm thinking more along the lines of metal oxidation due to heating/cooling multiple times, thus altering mechanical properties. This holds truer when welding with oxyacetylene vs. GTAW (TIG).
While I'm not an avid fan of Mike Busch, he did make a pretty valid point as it relates to a Major Repair on an engine mount: https://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_54_is_repair_a_lost_art_197316-1.html. AC 43.13 is always a good fall-back whenever all else fails in obtaining approved data.
I plan to discuss this with our ASI at the MEM-FSDO. He is a pretty good guy... yes, good guy and FAA used in the same sentence can be just as confusing...
So if I take some sheetmetal off of a primary structure, and then put it back on using the same methods used in original manufacturing process, does that constitute a major repair? It certainly doesn't fall under any sort of alteration, but the fact that it could possibly alter the strength of the structural member... hmmm. I'm thinking more along the lines of metal oxidation due to heating/cooling multiple times, thus altering mechanical properties. This holds truer when welding with oxyacetylene vs. GTAW (TIG).
While I'm not an avid fan of Mike Busch, he did make a pretty valid point as it relates to a Major Repair on an engine mount: https://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_54_is_repair_a_lost_art_197316-1.html. AC 43.13 is always a good fall-back whenever all else fails in obtaining approved data.
I plan to discuss this with our ASI at the MEM-FSDO. He is a pretty good guy... yes, good guy and FAA used in the same sentence can be just as confusing...
blueshortwing
Non-Member
Kewanee, IL
I have never seen a SB signed off on a 337. Not required for alterations because the SB is actually a revision to the Type Certificate. In thinking about this, 819 is an inspection not a repair. If you found a bad tube and had to replace during the inspection, that would require 337. Merely doing the inspection even though welding involved would not be major. Would have to be done by A&P who technically can weld.��
Graham, Texas, United States
(b)Major repairs -
(1)Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.
(i) Box beams.
(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces.
(iii) Wing stringers or chord members.
(iv) Spars.
(v) Spar flanges.
(vi) Members of truss-type beams.
(vii) Thin sheet webs of beams.
(viii) Keel and chine members of boat hulls or floats.
(ix) Corrugated sheet compression members which act as flange material of wings or tail surfaces.
(x) Wing main ribs and compression members.
(xi) Wing or tail surface brace struts.
(xii) Engine mounts.
(xiii) Fuselage longerons.
(xiv) Members of the side truss, horizontal truss, or bulkheads.
(xv) Main seat support braces and brackets.
(xvi) Landing gear brace struts.
(xvii) Axles.
(xviii) Wheels.
(xix) Skis, and ski pedestals.
(xx) Parts of the control system such as control columns, pedals, shafts, brackets, or horns.
(xxi) Repairs involving the substitution of material.
(xxii) The repair of damaged areas in metal or plywood stressed covering exceeding six inches in any direction.
(xxiii) The repair of portions of skin sheets by making additional seams.
(xxiv) The splicing of skin sheets.
(xxv) The repair of three or more adjacent wing or control surface ribs or the leading edge of wings and control surfaces, between such adjacent ribs.
(xxvi) Repair of fabric covering involving an area greater than that required to repair two adjacent ribs.
(xxvii) Replacement of fabric on fabric covered parts such as wings, fuselages, stabilizers, and control surfaces.
(xxviii) Repairing, including rebottoming, of removable or integral fuel tanks and oil tanks.
I don't see the sheetmetal as structural. The fusleage is not heat treated so I don't see it being major to weld it back on just like Piper did. If you question it being major error on the side of caution and file a 337. No harm, no foul.
(1)Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.
(i) Box beams.
(ii) Monocoque or semimonocoque wings or control surfaces.
(iii) Wing stringers or chord members.
(iv) Spars.
(v) Spar flanges.
(vi) Members of truss-type beams.
(vii) Thin sheet webs of beams.
(viii) Keel and chine members of boat hulls or floats.
(ix) Corrugated sheet compression members which act as flange material of wings or tail surfaces.
(x) Wing main ribs and compression members.
(xi) Wing or tail surface brace struts.
(xii) Engine mounts.
(xiii) Fuselage longerons.
(xiv) Members of the side truss, horizontal truss, or bulkheads.
(xv) Main seat support braces and brackets.
(xvi) Landing gear brace struts.
(xvii) Axles.
(xviii) Wheels.
(xix) Skis, and ski pedestals.
(xx) Parts of the control system such as control columns, pedals, shafts, brackets, or horns.
(xxi) Repairs involving the substitution of material.
(xxii) The repair of damaged areas in metal or plywood stressed covering exceeding six inches in any direction.
(xxiii) The repair of portions of skin sheets by making additional seams.
(xxiv) The splicing of skin sheets.
(xxv) The repair of three or more adjacent wing or control surface ribs or the leading edge of wings and control surfaces, between such adjacent ribs.
(xxvi) Repair of fabric covering involving an area greater than that required to repair two adjacent ribs.
(xxvii) Replacement of fabric on fabric covered parts such as wings, fuselages, stabilizers, and control surfaces.
(xxviii) Repairing, including rebottoming, of removable or integral fuel tanks and oil tanks.
I don't see the sheetmetal as structural. The fusleage is not heat treated so I don't see it being major to weld it back on just like Piper did. If you question it being major error on the side of caution and file a 337. No harm, no foul.
Hernando, MS
Thanks for the inputs, folks. As mentioned, I did query our local FSDO. Once we got on the same page, here was his response:
There is no 337 required for welding. Welding is a process of fabrication. A 337 is required for alterations and repairs to the product itself. The welding must be done iaw industry standards. Don’t get wrapped up in the reinstallation of a channel. As long as the weld does not compromise the tubing structure, and it is done correctly, you have not done a major repair to anything. I believe people are over-thinking this issue and making it way too difficult. There is no interruption needed for this specific issue, it’s very clear...
If you do not agree with this, make a written request to the FAA. I would send it certified return receipt.
Federal Aviation Administration
Office of the Chief General Counsel
800 Independence Ave, SW
Washington DC 20591
If you do not agree with this, make a written request to the FAA. I would send it certified return receipt.
Federal Aviation Administration
Office of the Chief General Counsel
800 Independence Ave, SW
Washington DC 20591
Clayton Harper
Non-Member
Seabrook, TX
Curt, It appears to me that this author, like a lot of A&Ps, is unaware of the Appendix to FAR Part 43. Do your own test. Ask a few mechanic what is in the Part 43 Appendix.
Rick-CAS
Non-Member
Grain Valley, MO (E. Kansas City)
I think Clayton has this one. Appendix A discusses manufacturing, fabricating, and welding as major repairs. SB 819 is FAA approved data to remove, inspect, fabricate, and install. So a gray area as to just comply with the SB as a logbook entry. I would say put it on a 337 referring the SB and send it in just to cover yourself. I know Appendix A says primary structure but how do you defend what holds the windshield in. That’s a required item for flight or the front door? Secondary structure welded to primary. I’ve discussed things like this with a couple of Feds I work with. It always starts with the answer you want to hear then the “well if we were looking for something to violate you over” it would probably be a gray area subject like this.
(b) Major repairs—(1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.
(b) Major repairs—(1) Airframe major repairs. Repairs to the following parts of an airframe and repairs of the following types, involving the strengthening, reinforcing, splicing, and manufacturing of primary structural members or their replacement, when replacement is by fabrication such as riveting or welding, are airframe major repairs.
blueshortwing
Non-Member
Kewanee, IL
I would like to discourage sending in 337's "just to be safe". I think the industry does itself a dis-service doing that and it is actually contrary to FAA policy. FAA says you should not submit a 337 for a minor. Back in the day A&P's installed radios all the time with just a logbook entry. Then somehow we started sending in 337's on them in the late 80's early 90's, then it became expected to submit even though the regs never changed. (When did Principal Avionics Inspectors become an FAA position?) Now the industry is trying to take back the authority to install radios without 337's. My method is to document my decision to declare the minor and put it in the logbook. If the FAA inspector disagrees at a later date, then we have a disagreement and find a resolution. No fraud or coverup needed. Another thing I hear from fellow IA's is "Well Ok City didn't kick back my 337, so it must be approved". Ok City only has Inspectors look at (very) random 337's to check content. Almost all 337's are only looked at by document specialists to scan into the files. They look to see if the Owner/N-number/serial is consistent with their records, but do not examine the content of the 337. It would only be looked at by an FAA Inspector if at a later date there was a problem and they went back and examined the form. The IA is the approver! My $.02
Actually fileing a 337 for a minor repair or minor alteration is a violation of 43.9. I’ve never seen a letter of investigation or violation for it, but it is still a violation. Just as blueshortwing says, document your decision process for it being a minor in the log book entry using the decision tree FAA gives. You can’t go wrong!
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dhillier
MEMBER
EGHA - UK
PA16 SB819 Help
Help!
Recently I started the rebuild on N5240H. I cut the sheet metal off for SB819 to reveal a fair few bits of corrosion. The tubes have all been blasted, primed and are ready for repairing. When in the USA last month I collected the SB819 kit for a PA16 from Univair.
Using drawing 11858, Pipers SB819 instructions and various photos as reference, I am still very much stuck.
I can’t figure out how many of the parts fit onto the fuselage. They appear very oversized in both length and width. Problems include
How do the 3 parts that make up the right hand entry door rear frame fit together?
How do the 4 parts that make up the front of the left hand rear passenger door fit together?
Where do parts:
16-22
16-23
16-20
16-21B
22-07B
16-21T
fit on the frame?
Does anyone have any photos or advice that may be useful please?
Regards
Dean
Help!
Recently I started the rebuild on N5240H. I cut the sheet metal off for SB819 to reveal a fair few bits of corrosion. The tubes have all been blasted, primed and are ready for repairing. When in the USA last month I collected the SB819 kit for a PA16 from Univair.
Using drawing 11858, Pipers SB819 instructions and various photos as reference, I am still very much stuck.
I can’t figure out how many of the parts fit onto the fuselage. They appear very oversized in both length and width. Problems include
How do the 3 parts that make up the right hand entry door rear frame fit together?
How do the 4 parts that make up the front of the left hand rear passenger door fit together?
Where do parts:
16-22
16-23
16-20
16-21B
22-07B
16-21T
fit on the frame?
Does anyone have any photos or advice that may be useful please?
Regards
Dean
