Super Pacer Spars

[Steve Pierce]

Wayne Dickson, owner of Southern Aero southernaero.net who makes parts for the Super Pacer STC and James Smith who owns the Super Pacer STC came through yesterday after picking up 2,000 lbs of spars from the extruder local to me. Wayne is in Georgia and James is in Washington state and both will have an inventory of front and rear spar blanks extruded to Piper specifications out of 6061 aluminum. They also left several sets here for anyone close to me in Texas. We had a great visit and I learned some interesting stuff. I had met James before. He helped Steve Adams with his fuselage on his stretched Pacer after the Stinson crash landed on top of it. I had corresponded with Wayne via the forums but finally got to meet him in person.

 

[rsrguy3]

Damn.... hot damn.... those are extremely attractive!

 

[Jim]

Hi,

How long are those?

 

[Subsonic]

I wonder if I could build a Super Tri-Pacer?? That would be a Super Pacer with a beautiful nosewheel.

 

[Rene]

I wonder if I could build a Super Tri-Pacer?? That would be a Super Pacer with a beautiful nosewheel.

"Beautiful nosewheel . . .? Your message was garbled, say again.

 

[rsrguy3]

I wonder if I could build a Super Tri-Pacer?? That would be a Super Pacer with a beautiful nosewheel.

No such thing

 

[Steve Pierce]

The spars are 204" (17') long.

You tailwheel snobs need to get over it. Having fixed my fair share of ground looped tail draggers, I have an appreciation for Tri-Pacers and NX Cubs. Three in my shop right now.

 

[Pacer42Z]

The spars are 204" (17') long.

You tailwheel snobs need to get over it. Having fixed my fair share of ground looped tail draggers, I have an appreciation for Tri-Pacers and NX Cubs. Three in my shop right now.

Yep, can happen any time. I have over 3,000 hours in tail wheel airplanes and over 2,600 hours in my Pacer. Came in for a landing two weeks ago (it wasn’t even too windy) and I was lazy on my feet when I felt the Pacer trying to go sideways on me. Took all the rudder and some brake to keep it straight.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

 

[Rene]

The spars are 204" (17') long.

You tailwheel snobs need to get over it. Having fixed my fair share of ground looped tail draggers, I have an appreciation for Tri-Pacers and NX Cubs. Three in my shop right now.

It ain't "hard", it just requires attention. You have to "fly" a real airplane from the time you untie it, or pull it out of the hangar, until you tie it back down, or put it back in the hangar. That's all. To paraphrase what someone on another site said: Look at videos of ground loops, the ailerons are ALWAYS wrong for the situation. I tried a nose-dragger once (1.0 hour in a 415-C/D) . . . I didn't care for the foot rests (and some ERCOs don't even have footrests).

Although . . . in the interest of getting along . . . both tail-draggers and nose-draggers can agree on one thing . . .

Butt-draggers are just plain weird,

 

[Subsonic]

"Beautiful nosewheel . . .? Your message was garbled, say again.

Agree a butt-dragger is weird. I think everyone agrees tailwheels are good for rough country landings but they have a significant disadvantage when landing in crosswinds, especially as landing speed increases.

The only disadvantage of a nosewheel that I see, is that I can't retract it in flight. The aerodynamic advantage of the Pacer over the Tri-Pacer is real, in my experience.

Back to my comment that prompted the "real airplane" responses. The idea of a long winged and stretched Tri-Pacer just makes a lot of sense to me. Lower stall speeds, better low speed control authority, 100 pounds more payload, no meaningfull reduction in cruise speed, and you get to keep that beautiful nosewheel...what's not to like?

 

[Steve Pierce]

Back to my comment that prompted the "real airplane" responses. The idea of a long winged and stretched Tri-Pacer just makes a lot of sense to me. Lower stall speeds, better low speed control authority, 100 pounds more payload, no meaningfull reduction in cruise speed, and you get to keep that beautiful nosewheel...what's not to like?

Like this but not for $500k.


I couldn't tell where the wheel was when I was flying it.

 

[Steve Pierce]

We brought those airplanes back to Texas from the Cub Crafters factory last March. 155 mph and we could still get down in the fun spots and play. I haven't had to retrieve any NX Cubs like this.

 

[Subsonic]

I don't wish a ground loop on anybody. But you have admit they seem to be contagious among conventional geared planes. You'd think that $500K pricing is just begging for some immediate marketplace competition...

 

[Jim]

Hi,

Took me 42 years to have a damaging ground loop, compliancy caught up with me.

 

[Subsonic]

Isn't there a saying about that, regarding old pilots? 42 years? Only ONCE? I think you may be one of the few to go that long... Isn't there a saying about old pilots? Those that have ground looped and those that have yet to??? or something like that? You may be one of the few hero's in this class.

I'll just throw it out there: Pilots of conventional geared planes routinely "fight" a negative-static-stability margin upon landing that may be worsened by aerodynamic side loads. If you don't understand this concept, take a shopping cart from any supermarket, and challenge the person next to you to a foot race across the parking lot. Offer him 50 bucks if he wins. Give yourself an advantage: Pick an OLD guy to race against. Only, you have to push your cart backwards. And, you have to keep all four wheels on the ground. See who wins. Then tell me how cool your taildragger is. Do it.

That's why taildraggers are a dying breed. Survival of the fittest.

 

[Subsonic]

Ok, I have to admit that last post was meant to be a little provacative. And, probably overstated the whole survivabilty of the fittest thing. But you have to view statistics, right? I'm not talking about who won the last presidential election. I'm talking about GA planes that crash on landing. Anybody can show me where I'm wrong. Of course there will always be a small faction of pilots who want to fly tail draggers. But I believe the percentage of pilots who want to fly into the back country safely to camp and fish and hunt is much higher, than those that are committed to learning to fly tail draggers. I think the whole world of tail dragger pilots will soon shift to those that just want a safe and fast means to get there and back without the drama and safety issues. My 2c.

 

[Subsonic]

Who else wants a taildragger? Does anyone landing on pavement want a taildragger? Just want to answer for a friend. He doesn't understand...He asked me, why do they spend $5K on tires to land on pavement? I couldn't answer. Please advise.

I said, "well they want to be challenged and surprised by crosswinds on the big tarmac, that might mimic the 12 or 20 hours a year they go to the back country and for 6 or 10 minutes a year, they try to land on a high altitude narrow valley grass strip". "They live for that 10 minutes." He appeared confused and did not reply to my answer...

Tell me where I got that wrong, please.

 

[Jim]

Hi Subsonic,

...... 42 years? Only ONCE?.....

The operative phrase there was "damaging ground loop". I can't even recall all the times I went around without bending it, close to half dozen probably. This event was aggravated by my usually flying light and solo, but this ride was loaded close to gross. I noticed on the way out to fly it wasn't nearly as nimble to foot input. I landed on the grass but was a tad sideways when we got to crossing the asphalt runway and it went around on me. Did a 360. Aside from pushing the longeron up and in, I cracked my right wingtip, broke a wheel half and scuffed off the fabric tape under the right horizontal stabilizer. As it was skipping around backwards and began riding up on the left gear, I remember saying to myself, don't fold under, don't fold under. No Prop problem.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Who else wants a taildragger? Does anyone landing on pavement want a taildragger? Just want to answer for a friend. He doesn't understand...He asked me, why do they spend $5K on tires to land on pavement? I couldn't answer. Please advise.

I said, "well they want to be challenged and surprised by crosswinds on the big tarmac, that might mimic the 12 or 20 hours a year they go to the back country and for 6 or 10 minutes a year, they try to land on a high altitude narrow valley grass strip". "They live for that 10 minutes." He appeared confused and did not reply to my answer...

Tell me where I got that wrong, please.

I very rarely land on pavement. I mow two grass areas on my home airport for the last 25 plus years and did all the legwork to get those runway safety areas approved for operations. I land off airport at least once a week. We meet every Sunday morning at the least. I also make a few trips a year to Idaho, Utah and/or Arkansas to play, camp and just enjoy. It is my thing along with many of my friends. Some people love to go fast, some people just like to get off the ground. Different missions, different airplanes.
If you look close you will see a Cessna 150 in the mix. Not the right tool for the job. Got stuck and almost didn't make it out in a very strong wind.

Didn't get to go yesterday because of low ceilings but did fly a little Saturday evening for some STOL practice.

 

[akflyer]

Who else wants a taildragger? Does anyone landing on pavement want a taildragger? Just want to answer for a friend. He doesn't understand...He asked me, why do they spend $5K on tires to land on pavement? I couldn't answer. Please advise.

I said, "well they want to be challenged and surprised by crosswinds on the big tarmac, that might mimic the 12 or 20 hours a year they go to the back country and for 6 or 10 minutes a year, they try to land on a high altitude narrow valley grass strip". "They live for that 10 minutes." He appeared confused and did not reply to my answer...

Tell me where I got that wrong, please.

Just because you lack the ability to properly fly a tail dragger doesn't mean you have to defend your precious little nose wheel so much. I have helped recover multiple nose draggers that was taking a nap on its back because the nose gear folded and over they went. I almost put my first TP on its back in a cinder blow when that little wheel dug in. I fly mine almost exclusively off airport except for the first take off and last landing of the day. If you want a day of adventure, come follow me around for 1 day with your bird. Have the heli on speed dial cause you will need him to get you and your wrecked bird home.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what your "buddy" thinks, it's not his money that is being spent on tires.

 

[Rene]

Isn't there a saying about that, regarding old pilots? 42 years? Only ONCE? I think you may be one of the few to go that long... Isn't there a saying about old pilots? Those that have ground looped and those that have yet to??? or something like that? You may be one of the few hero's in this class.

I'll just throw it out there: Pilots of conventional geared planes routinely "fight" a negative-static-stability margin upon landing that may be worsened by aerodynamic side loads. If you don't understand this concept, take a shopping cart from any supermarket, and challenge the person next to you to a foot race across the parking lot. Offer him 50 bucks if he wins. Give yourself an advantage: Pick an OLD guy to race against. Only, you have to push your cart backwards. And, you have to keep all four wheels on the ground. See who wins. Then tell me how cool your taildragger is. Do it.

That's why taildraggers are a dying breed. Survival of the fittest.

That's a valid analogy . . . if your airplane is a pusher with the prop located behind the tailwheel. My Vag has a prop mounted up front that pulls the airplane across the turf until IT decides to fly and pulls the plane along the turf after I decide to stop flying above the turf.

I know tons of pilots who fly airplanes with conventional gear. It isn't "hard". It requires attention. Most people learn to "drive" tricycles with footrests. It requires less attention. Then they can't handle airplanes that demand more attention. When I was starting out people online opined that I couldn't learn to fly in a tailwheel plane, and that it might take me 20 hours just to master taxiing . . . what a laugh.

Here is a mental exercise. How many fighter pilots did the US train in WW2? Other than the P-38, P-39, P-80, and F7F, those guys (along with B-17 and DC-3 pilots) all flew planes with conventional gear. And ALL pilots started out in trainers with conventional gear. How many hours were flown, how many landings made? How many planes were damaged on landing in ground loop accidents? I mean, I honestly don't know, but I doubt it was very high ratio.

 

[Steve Pierce]

More planes were lost in WWII to ground accidents than combat. Saw that in a documentary on the bombing of Japan and showed all the P51s lined up along the runway on those little atolls.

Put the egos aside. Yes, I too learned to fly in a tail wheel airplane, a PA16. It was more demanding and I cussed it for 12 hours till it clicked. I also fly weekly, most times several times a week. I have had customers with tailwheel airplanes that for whatever reason cannot do that. I have seen people master the tail wheel in short order and I have seen people that just have some sort of mental block and no matter how much they try, how many instructors they just can't do it comfortably. I love my Super Cub and Clipper and I like my Cessna 182. Different mission, different enjoyment. I am flying and that is what matters to me. It puts the world in perspective.

 

[Pacer42Z]

Nosewheel pilots should also align the airplane with the centerline of the runway to keep the sideload off the gear. There are plenty of YouTube videos out there about landing accidents of nosewheel airplanes, including Tri-Pacers. I have over 3,200 hours in Taildraggers, haven't flown a nosewheel airplane since 1996 and have over 2,600 hours in my Pacer. So far so good.

Juergen
Pacer N3342Z

 

[Pilot-34]

Conventional gear will fly a little faster carry a little more than tricycle gear and they’re a little less safe while they do it.
You have to decide if it’s worth while to you.
You can take a look at the manufacturing statistics starting in the 50s to see what the majority of people have really decided is the valid trade-off

 

[Rene]

Conventional gear will fly a little faster carry a little more than tricycle gear and they’re a little less safe while they do it.
You have to decide if it’s worth while to you.
You can take a look at the manufacturing statistics starting in the 50s to see what the majority of people have really decided is the valid trade-off

I doubt statistics would bear out that tail wheel aircraft are less safe than nose wheelers when compared apple to apple (120/140/150, 170/172, 20/22, 180/182).

Popularity doesn't equal quality. More people eat at McD than at good restaurants, it's easier.

 

[Steve Pierce]

I doubt statistics would bear out that tail wheel aircraft are less safe than nose wheelers when compared apple to apple (120/140/150, 170/172, 20/22, 180/182).

Popularity doesn't equal quality. More people eat at McD than at good restaurants, it's easier.

What he is saying is to look at the numbers. There is a reason Piper started building the Tri-Pacer and Cessna started building the 150. You have developed the skill and obviously have the passion. Unfortunately a lot of the up and coming pilots don't have the passion. It is a job and they are marking the boxes to get there with no real love of what they are doing. I see it more and more but there are always the exceptions and those are the people I spend time with.

 

[Jim]

One of my best friends, recently passed, flew his entire life, 38,000 hours. Retired just after 9-11 as #11 in seniority at American. He was one of the few that loved aviation enough to build an RV-7a and continued playing with it as long as he was able. None of his other pilot friends, at least none he knew of, continued with aircraft as a hobby. I was five years old when I wanted to fly, the same year my 53 was leaving the Piper factory. We finally met in 82 and it's been a good time since.

 

[Furry]

I wonder if I could build a Super Tri-Pacer?? That would be a Super Pacer with a beautiful nosewheel.

I see nobody actually gave you a legitimate answer here...the tailwheel part was an option, not sure if James kept that the same when he took over but I seem to remember it still being the case when we talked.

"It also includes a tailwheel option or Edo-2000 float installation."

 

[Rene]

Who else wants a taildragger? Does anyone landing on pavement want a taildragger?

Who wants pavement?
6Y3 2P2
6Y5 5Y7

 

[Subsonic]

Just because you lack the ability to properly fly a tail dragger doesn't mean you have to defend your precious little nose wheel so much. I have helped recover multiple nose draggers that was taking a nap on its back because the nose gear folded and over they went. I almost put my first TP on its back in a cinder blow when that little wheel dug in. I fly mine almost exclusively off airport except for the first take off and last landing of the day. If you want a day of adventure, come follow me around for 1 day with your bird. Have the heli on speed dial cause you will need him to get you and your wrecked bird home.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what your "buddy" thinks, it's not his money that is being spent on tires.

Talk about defensive! I highlighted "landing on pavement" for a reason. How many ground loops have you had in your tail-draggers, akflyer? And, I do realize they have clear advantages in the outback rough, bar hopping, and other off pavement work. There's also no denying the fact they ground loop regularly, at much greater frequency than the alternative. Ask your insurance company if you don't believe me.

 

[Subsonic]

I see nobody actually gave you a legitimate answer here...the tailwheel part was an option, not sure if James kept that the same when he took over but I seem to remember it still being the case when we talked.

"It also includes a tailwheel option or Edo-2000 float installation."

My gosh, with some of the triggered responses, I almost missed this! Thank you, I will look into this. Furry, have you thought about becoming a member?

 

[Subsonic]

Who wants pavement?
View attachment 32172 6Y3 View attachment 32174 2P2
View attachment 32175 6Y5 View attachment 32176 5Y7

Nice pics! Those look like a the half dozen or so grass strips I've landed on in my 7 year flying career - maybe a total of 15 landings off airport...with a nose wheel attached. I contend, the real advantages of tail draggers' are only manifest on rough terrain. None of those strips in these pics look rough to me.