TK1 Landing gear

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

Would like to upgrade my landing gear and have been looking into the TK1 gear. Has anyone put this on their short wing without going experimental i.e. field approval?? I have spoke with a DAR that advocates going exhibition experimental for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that you can put non-faa approved parts on with the stipulation of it being well documented (incase someone wanted to make it certified again). I worry about going experimental due to the fact of price increase on insurance and having to pay the DAR $2500 to do so. Currently I have the original narrow gear with the 1.25" axles. When looking at upgrading my gear with the better wide gear and 1.5" axles, the cost is similar to just buying the TK1 gear when you take into account that I would have to buy new wheels, also. Would love everyone's opinion on the matter as I am sure there a lot of Shortwing friends on here who have 10x the amount of experience than I. Thank you in advance!

 

[Stephen]

Is this the Kitcox gear with shock monsters?

 

[Steve Pierce]

Is the narrow gear a problem? Wide gear comes in 1 1/4" axle size so you wouldn't have to change your wheels. Is the TK1 gear a direct replacement?

 

[dgapilot]

You might want to read 43.1 closely. All of the Part 43 requirements still apply to an aircraft with an Experimental Certificate that previously had a different type of certificate.

Wish I lived in your neck of the woods where a DAR can get $2500 for a single engine certification. I charge $1000 and a lot of folks complain about that!

Does the TK1 gear bolt in where the original gear and hydrosorb go, or do you have to do the Super Cub gear mod?

I’ve done a lot of DER approvals for “uncertified” parts, just have to supply the engineering to show it meets the CAR 3 requirements, and doesn’t trip the “major change in type design” switch of 21.93.

I’ve never seen any real advantage in the wide gear on the Pacer, but that’s me. Stock gear seems fine for most stuff. Better shock absorbing might be nice, other than that, the narrow gear is actually a little stronger than the wide gear (shorter tubes so a little better column buckling strength).


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[Buckaroo.Pilot]

He has gear for quite a few different planes, so yes, there is gear for the kitfox. He also has a direct bolt on gear for the pa-20.

 

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

Is the narrow gear a problem? Wide gear comes in 1 1/4" axle size so you wouldn't have to change your wheels. Is the TK1 gear a direct replacement?

No, not a problem, the right gear has been scabbed together and I have had heck trying to find a replacement for it. Yes, Tk1 is a direct replacement.

 

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

You might want to read 43.1 closely. All of the Part 43 requirements still apply to an aircraft with an Experimental Certificate that previously had a different type of certificate.

Wish I lived in your neck of the woods where a DAR can get $2500 for a single engine certification. I charge $1000 and a lot of folks complain about that!

Does the TK1 gear bolt in where the original gear and hydrosorb go, or do you have to do the Super Cub gear mod?

I’ve done a lot of DER approvals for “uncertified” parts, just have to supply the engineering to show it meets the CAR 3 requirements, and doesn’t trip the “major change in type design” switch of 21.93.

I’ve never seen any real advantage in the wide gear on the Pacer, but that’s me. Stock gear seems fine for most stuff. Better shock absorbing might be nice, other than that, the narrow gear is actually a little stronger than the wide gear (shorter tubes so a little better column buckling strength).


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Will definitely read 43.1, thank you. The DAR I spoke with wasn't necessarily in my neck of the woods.. He is in california and I am in Montana so his travel expenses would have been added on top of the $2500. You up for a trip to Montana?

Yes, the TK1 is a direct bolt on which makes it all the more appealing, and built out of chromoly tubing. If I could get a field approval I would no doubt do the TK1 for the all around better design. I appreciate your insight on the wide vs. the narrow.

 

[Stephen]

Will definitely read 43.1, thank you. The DAR I spoke with wasn't necessarily in my neck of the woods.. He is in california and I am in Montana so his travel expenses would have been added on top of the $2500. You up for a trip to Montana?

Yes, the TK1 is a direct bolt on which makes it all the more appealing, and built out of chromoly tubing. If I could get a field approval I would no doubt do the TK1 for the all around better design. I appreciate your insight on the wide vs. the narrow.

Direct bolt on would save a lot of work compared to the Trimmer gear STC. I wonder if the TK1 will handle to load as well.

 

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

https://store.tk1racing.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PACER1 For those interested, here is the link to the gear.

 

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

Direct bolt on would save a lot of work compared to the Trimmer gear STC. I wonder if the TK1 will handle to load as well.

My opinion (which isn't as experienced as others), I believe it would. With the cabane system and shocks, seems to be a better design than the hydrosorb and bungee system. Also taking into account the fact that its chromoly 1.5'' tubing with a lot better dampening ability, to me it seems like a superior product. Hopefully someone on here has the gear and can give us greater insight.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Curious how the load paths on that Cub style gear will work out on the Pacer fuselage without structural modification. Eddie Trimmer had to add a lot of structure to the fuselage for the Cub gear.

 

[akflyer]

Curious how the load paths on that Cub style gear will work out on the Pacer fuselage without structural modification. Eddie Trimmer had to add a lot of structure to the fuselage for the Cub gear.

I wonder if one could beef up the fuse sides and the seat truss with aircraft ply that is put in with structural adhesive like we do in the Avids and Kitfoxes. Filling in the triangles with 1/4" aircraft ply stopped the seat trusses from folding up on the Avids/Kitfox

 

[dgapilot]

Curious how the load paths on that Cub style gear will work out on the Pacer fuselage without structural modification. Eddie Trimmer had to add a lot of structure to the fuselage for the Cub gear.

I agree, the front gear attach fittings only have a 1x.035 cross tube on the PA-20, not sure what they put in on the PA-22 conversion. Seems pretty small for putting a cabane there.


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[dgapilot]

I wonder if one could beef up the fuse sides and the seat truss with aircraft ply that is put in with structural adhesive like we do in the Avids and Kitfoxes. Filling in the triangles with 1/4" aircraft ply stopped the seat trusses from folding up on the Avids/Kitfox

The gear truss under the seat isn’t the issue. That truss is at the rear fittings. The issue is that changing the load path from that truss to the forward gear fittings with much less structure.


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[Buckaroo.Pilot]

I agree, the front gear attach fittings only have a 1x.035 cross tube on the PA-20, not sure what they put in on the PA-22 conversion. Seems pretty small for putting a cabane there.


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In looking at Stephan's "PA 18 Landing gear" thread, his front fittings look to have a truss design; was that specific to pa-22's?

 

[Stephen]

I agree, the front gear attach fittings only have a 1x.035 cross tube on the PA-20, not sure what they put in on the PA-22 conversion. Seems pretty small for putting a cabane there.


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I did the Trimmer STC last year. Had to remove the front cross tube, install larger diameter tube plus a smaller tube inside. Also, had to replace the vertical left side tube going from the gear cluster to the wing attachment cluster. Plus several new cross pieces. This was based on engineering requirements. The rear gear attachment had to be reinforced also.

I believe the Trimmer set up with PA18 gear is very strong.

 

[PACERGUY]

Sooooo, you did ask for everyones opinion. MOREBETTERDISEASE has prevented more pilots from flying than helped keep them flying. You will most likely only need that gear on less than 1 percent of your landing if even that. I learned to fly in a Pacer and flew it around a lot of ALASKA. So unless you plan on going to some never seen before swamp/bolder strip the gear will not really help you. The gear is not the issue for Backcountry flying in a Pacer it is the wing/HP. A basic 150 HP pacer will land a lot shorter than it can take off. You are looking at 700 ft or longer strips in general, most all of them are pretty smooth. Save your 3 months of downtime and money. Get a set of 29 or 31 inch bushwheels and go enjoy playing. Questions to ask yourself.
1. What other aircraft do I usually fly with? If they have spring gear yours is just fine.
2. Do I really have the experience to do rough off field work? The gear might help get you in but not out!!
3. Am I just trying to put lipstick on a pig???
Sorry for the cold bucket of water, just trying to get the MOREBETTERDISEASE fever down.
DENNY

 

[Buckaroo.Pilot]

Sooooo, you did ask for everyones opinion. MOREBETTERDISEASE has prevented more pilots from flying than helped keep them flying. You will most likely only need that gear on less than 1 percent of your landing if even that. I learned to fly in a Pacer and flew it around a lot of ALASKA. So unless you plan on going to some never seen before swamp/bolder strip the gear will not really help you. The gear is not the issue for Backcountry flying in a Pacer it is the wing/HP. A basic 150 HP pacer will land a lot shorter than it can take off. You are looking at 700 ft or longer strips in general, most all of them are pretty smooth. Save your 3 months of downtime and money. Get a set of 29 or 31 inch bushwheels and go enjoy playing. Questions to ask yourself.
1. What other aircraft do I usually fly with? If they have spring gear yours is just fine.
2. Do I really have the experience to do rough off field work? The gear might help get you in but not out!!
3. Am I just trying to put lipstick on a pig???
Sorry for the cold bucket of water, just trying to get the MOREBETTERDISEASE fever down.
DENNY

No need to be sorry, this is exactly what I was asking for. Honestly, the flying I do and plan on doing is well within the envelope of the original gear. BUTTTT, the right gear leg has a been welded on (before I bought it) and I would like to replace it. Trying to find the gear leg needed (narrow with 1.25" axle) has proven to be pretty difficult without going the route of buying a brand new one.. And if I buy a brand new one, my thought was why not spend the extra 2k and get a better designed gear all around??

 

[Stephen]

Yep. Got an incurable case of the MOREBETTERDISEASE. Love to design and build and make it better. I'm replacing my aft lower longerons this winter just to make a straighter line. BTW, I'm on my third set of 29's....they cost over four grand.

If building isn't your thing, skip the MBD and fly.

 

[rocket]

$4,800 plus an extra $150 for a step, double that if you want two, $200 for the safty rope kit... Doesn't say anything about direct bolt on. Looks like the cabana sits on the front face of the forward fitting. That fitting isn't on there all that great to start with... Not sure I see any advantage over the stock the setup... Might help if you've got a super cub fetish and your wallet is too thick for your ass . In the end though it's only a little more the 100 hours of the cost of flying so in the scheme of things. I would pony up for a stock gear and get flying. It is fun to talk about when the weather sucks and during the holidays when family expects you to be home and not out making noise and ripping air molecules apart . Rocket

 

[dgapilot]

No need to be sorry, this is exactly what I was asking for. Honestly, the flying I do and plan on doing is well within the envelope of the original gear. BUTTTT, the right gear leg has a been welded on (before I bought it) and I would like to replace it. Trying to find the gear leg needed (narrow with 1.25" axle) has proven to be pretty difficult without going the route of buying a brand new one.. And if I buy a brand new one, my thought was why not spend the extra 2k and get a better designed gear all around??

There have been a couple people that have converted from narrow to wide gear in the last couple years. I would think there should be some available used.


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[Glen Geller]

Honestly, the flying I do and plan on doing is well within the envelope of the original gear. BUTTTT, the right gear leg has a been welded on (before I bought it) and I would like to replace it. Trying to find the gear leg needed (narrow with 1.25" axle) has proven to be pretty difficult without going the route of buying a brand new one.. And if I buy a brand new one, my thought was why not spend the extra 2k and get a better designed gear all around??

Why not take the wonky gear to a certified welder and simply have it rebuilt to remove the crappy portions and put in nice fresh tubing etc?
There's only 10~20 parts to the thing, if one or two were problematic just replace them, that might be the faster/cheaper solution.
And you could have the corner web upgrades (as done in the PA22 tailwheel conversions) done at the same time.

GG