Tri-pacer pattern speeds

[Dan Conrad]

New Tri-pacer owner here, what speeds are you guy's & gal's flying the pattern, flaps, speed across the fence ect. How about best glide speed. Just starting my lessons after a 10 year lag. Bought a 1954 PA-22, 150hp. CFI has no time in a tri-pacer so trying to get ahead of the curve. any tips?

 

[Pacer 24C]

I would suggest using the speeds in the Operators Manual - you can slow it down when you are light and get more experience with the Plane -always use the trim - makes a big diference in how the plane handles and flares out.

 

[gliderman]

Dan
Pacer 24C is right- use the speeds in the operators manual.
I've deviated a little...
I am by no means an expert and hopefully my fellow Tri-Pacer owners will chime in-to add to this....either to confirm, add or set me straight....
so my 2 cents:
I set the RPM to 1500 and trim it out to 75 MPH indicated with 2 notches of flap on most approaches.you can put one notch of flap above 80mph but you need to be at 80 or below to add more. I find that on downwind if I pull the power back to 1500 and trim for 80( about 3 1/2 turns of the trim) and then add the second notch it settles to 75 mph and I fly it to the "Fence" in that configuration. You and CFI will be surprised at the sink rate of these wonderful planes-It's not a C----A 172!! It is not uncommon for me to be turning final at 800 AGL and hit the numbers in a "Normal" circuit( depending on the usual factors-A/c weight, wind, density altitude etc).

2 things I do know for a fact: do not take off with full flaps(just ask my wife about that one.....) and strong Xwinds and flaps do not mix well

Like I said earlier-I'm no expert- there are people out there with a whole lot more experiernce than me....

Have fun learning to fly your 54 Tri-Pacer- I have one too- serial # 2258: I'm still learning......

Shane

 

[d.grimm]

Get VG's! Great improvement in flying qualities.
Dave

 

[Dan Conrad]

Thanks, Mine is 8045-C ser # 2231. It was my father inlaws for 20 years and then my brother inlaws for 6 years so I was glad I could keep it in the family. Sure is alot more stable then the 150's and champ 7-AC I was flying. I will try what you said.

 

[bigjohnnie]

Dan,
There is a whole *lot* of wisdom in what these guys are saying. The one thing paramount to remember, is the seemingly phenomenal sink rate our stubby little beasts can develop. There is nothing more eye opening than experiencing that sinking feeling (pun intended) when attempting to flare and there is not enough energy left to arrest the descent. My first landing in a colt was akin to a carrier landing. Even a late burst of power didn't help much. Since I like doing my approaches power off, my approach path is a little steeper than most and my speed ( remember this is with full flaps, my 210 lbs and my dainty little wife and 3/4 tanks ) about 80mph. Seems to work for me. I have also found out that airspeed indicators can be rather erroneous, too. Mine would tend to read fast. So for me, it was all about the "feel" of what was happening. Wanna have some fun? Try simulated engine-out approaches. For me, immediately after I am abeam of the numbers on downwind, I keep the pattern tight and turn base and base to final all in one turn. By the time I roll out of the turn I am lined up with the runway, I am almost ready to flare. A a little hairy at first, but the more you do it the more fun you have.

 

[Bob Ohio]

My son hadn't flown for 18 years and was getting him ready for his BFR in my TRi-Pacer. He had Tommyhawk and Cherokee time only. Flying over farm country about 2,500 agl, him in left seat, , said power back to 1,700, slow to 75, full flaps, point the nose down at that fence row up ahead and maintain 75mph in decent. He was amazed at the decent angle and 2,500ft/min decent. Then had him continue slow flight with full flaps and maintain airspeed and altitude at 75mph. Did the same with one notch of flaps. Got him use to the decent rates at different flap settings. CFI was Cherokee man, never been in a Tripacer. Said this plane is a sinking rock at low RPM. Gave him a similar check out and told him, keep some power at 90mph, fly longer final, flap decision on final, across the numbers at 70. As he and the son got use to the sink rate at 80 with and without flaps they shorten up the finals and could hit the numbers. Cautioned them , don't get behind the power curve on final flare, keep some power, fly by the seat of you pants and feel the sink rate or you will drop it in. He passed the BFR and it was my time to turn him loose in my plane. Did 2 touch and goes, good job, said let me out, it is going to climb faster, fly faster, glider longer, settle slower, beware. He has about 10 hours in it now and makes some very nice landings. We have very little activity at our airport and I do a lot of straight in approaches at 300 to 500ft agl. rarely use full flaps and about 1,500rpm across the numbers. When at 600lb load and hot, maybe 1,700rpm on final.

Bob 52 Tripacer with 135hp

 

[pmanton]

I'm lazy. I slow to 80 down wind, put in 2 notches of flap, Crank enough trim to keep it at 80 and fly that way till I turn final. I can't say what speed I am over the fence since I'm no longer looking at the ASI. If I'm high I'll make a slipping turn to final, if low I add a bit of power.

I took a BFR in a friends PA-28 a few years ago. When he pulled the power for a forced landing I looked for a field underneath us. My friend asked why I didn't try for the airfield 5 miles away. PA22 habit I answered.

Paul
Salome, AZ

 

[Dan Conrad]

Thanks guy's as soon as this fog lifts in the valley I will try your advice. Talked more with my brother inlaw and he will go with me for some pattern work that will help a bunch. And I was kinda suprised how fast Charlie sank below 70 mph

 

[Roger Roger]

Cruise power till midfield, then back to about 1800-2000, slow to flap speed and dump them in turning base, final about 75-80 MPH 1500 RPM, touch down with a touch of power for a nice smooth landing.

 

[gliderman]

Dan
How is the pattern work going?
shane

 

[Subsonic]

Found this on search. Pretty funny for anyone who's flown more than a hundred hours in a shortwing.

 

[dgapilot]

Pattern speeds are a function of the environment you are in. I’ve held 130 to the runway fence when being chased by a GIV, and kept an easy 65 at a lazy airport. I prefer putting all the flaps I’m going to use all at once, and trim accordingly depending on where I am and traffic. I prefer patterns close enough and high enough that I can make the runway at any point if the engine fails. I’ll maintain pattern altitude until I’m on a glide path that will allow that. If I’m in the pattern with guys that drag 5 mile finals, I’ll slow to about 65 on downwind to close up the space so I can turn a more comfortable 1/4 mile final.

In short, learn what your airplane can do and adjust speed, altitude, flaps, and power so it puts you in the proper glide path for the conditions.


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[akflyer]

Pattern speeds are a function of the environment you are in. I’ve held 130 to the runway fence when being chased by a GIV, and kept an easy 65 at a lazy airport. I prefer putting all the flaps I’m going to use all at once, and trim accordingly depending on where I am and traffic. I prefer patterns close enough and high enough that I can make the runway at any point if the engine fails. I’ll maintain pattern altitude until I’m on a glide path that will allow that. If I’m in the pattern with guys that drag 5 mile finals, I’ll slow to about 65 on downwind to close up the space so I can turn a more comfortable 1/4 mile final.

In short, learn what your airplane can do and adjust speed, altitude, flaps, and power so it puts you in the proper glide path for the conditions.


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my thoughts exactly, If you need more than 1/4 mile final you need a lot more practice. I hate the local flight school teaching 3 mile finals and flying really low flat approaches. I have gotten on the radio more than once and asked them what the plan was if the engine quit and they were over houses 2 miles out at 500'. One can come in with extra speed, a quick slip and them pull in the flaps and be set down on the numbers every time. Too many these days are just along for the ride and not really flying the plane.

 

[dgapilot]

my thoughts exactly, If you need more than 1/4 mile final you need a lot more practice. I hate the local flight school teaching 3 mile finals and flying really low flat approaches. I have gotten on the radio more than once and asked them what the plan was if the engine quit and they were over houses 2 miles out at 500'. One can come in with extra speed, a quick slip and them pull in the flaps and be set down on the numbers every time. Too many these days are just along for the ride and not really flying the plane.

If they go much more than 1/4 mile out and haven't turned base, I consider them to be out of the pattern on a cross country and turn my base in front of them.

 

[Jim]

Hi,

I know some folks take the long finals because they aren't very good at getting everything set up to land. Flight training and pilot proficiency should have a goal of every pilot having the field made from pattern entry to touchdown.

 

[Tnathan]

Hi,

I know some folks take the long finals because they aren't very good at getting everything set up to land. Flight training and pilot proficiency should have a goal of every pilot having the field made from pattern entry to touchdown.

I agree with you all. Folks who learned on planes that tend to quite taught us differently. But the current trend driven by the atp puppy mills seems to assume the engine will run and the biggest risk is the pilot doing something dumb, which may have some merit when green instructors are teaching green students. The big patterns buy the student time to get set up. And the focus these days is avoiding stall spin accidents. I thought it was embry riddle that was advocating moving from a square pattern to a standard rate, coordinated, descending, 180 turn from downwind to final as a solution.

Anyhow, big patterns slow me down when I am trying to land but live and let live. And, I am just boring hole in the sky anyhow. 5 more minutes in the air ain’t a bad thing.

 

[azevedoflyer]

PA22/20-150hp
Downwind, no matter what loading, 80 mph, no flaps, about 1500 rpm.
Abeam ldg spot, 1st notch of flaps, trim to 70 mph.
Turning base, 2nd notch of flaps.
If loaded to the gills, that is the speed to carry down to the actual landing. PA22/20s kind of seat on rails at this speed. Truly a sweet spot speed.
If by myself, turning final, trim to 60 mph and carry some power. How much, I do not know. As someone else said, I am looking outside!

I only do 3 pointers and after 20 years of ownership and surviving 1500+ ldgs, I still do not consistently get good ones! But get to use the plane again...
The result is a very short run, no brakes.
Good luck.
azevedoflyer

 

[Tnathan]

I am always amazed at all the different recipes for landing. I think it depends on your goal. I guess that’s why we learn normal landings, short field, and soft field when getting your PPL.

If you want the shortest landing, with the least roll out, than something just above stall with full flaps could work. But you may be setting yourself up for having to deal with a healthy sink rate. If you got the skill, Bush wheels, and or a soft landing surface, this may be the end of the spectrum you prefer.

If you don’t like how fast you are coming down and the sometimes abrupt end to your flight, you can use less flaps and a faster approach. But, I have had wry old pilots say adding power when you are trying to land near the ground is counter productive to the goal and adds energy you don’t want if you have an accident. There’s truth to that too.

So, for me I played around with different set ups. My home airport has a paved runway often with crosswinds off the bay. The hardtop runway is good at telling me when I didn’t manage the descent rate. So, for me I was looking for smoothing out my landing , keep good aileron control, and I have gobs of runway to use. If you landing in a short backcountry strip what I do is not ideal.

So, at the key position, I power back to 1500 rpm. ( as an aside I have both the original tach and a digital tack. 1500 on my digital is more like 1600-1700 on the original tach). I trim to the second line from the back and let the airspeed drop. Once I am in the white arc, I add one notch of flaps. I have Vgs and Stewart wingtips. All this settles out to around 75 mph and a nice 300-500 fpm descent rate. I make small adjustments on final to get me to ground effect depending on loading, headwind, density altitude, etc. I tend to carry power into ground effect where ground effect will help dampen the descent rate.

If I am doing a wheel landing on short final I may add a 100 rpm or so and push the nose down to the horizon depending on how she is sinking. If I am trying to shorten my roll with the wheel landing I will flare for 5degrees nose up. If I am doing a 3 point, I smoothly pull the power to idle, round out and flare 10 degrees nose up or so.

I seem to be in the minority but I decided I didn’t like 2 notches of flaps in the pacer. It worked fine in the 172 to work all the flaps in from downwind, base, final. But, I reasoned everyone complains that pacers drop out of the sky. Why am I throwing out a boat anchor in a plane that comes down fine on its own? Secondly I read an article that for most certified airplanes the first notch of flaps typically corresponds to L/D max. When I thought about it, that was exactly what I wanted in the pacer: max lift to drag. I also liked the view out the window. 2 notches at 60 left me having to add a lot of power and nose high. I liked the shallower pitch especially if I want to wheel land.


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[akflyer]

I think this comes down to skill level and mission. I make every landing set up to hit the numbers or my landing spot. If I find myself needing to avoid a long taxi I still set up for hitting the numbers then add power to carry me down the runway to the desired touch down spot. We are what we practice. If you need to fly by numbers (RPM, Airspeed etc) you need more practice. The plane will tell you if its happy with a solid feel on the controls, your butt will tell you if you sinking or not and your eyes will tell you how fast you are approaching the runway and where your touchdown spot will be.

Full flaps don't just add drag, they lower stall speed. Lower stall speed = lower touch down speed. Lower touch down speed = less tire wear (especially if you are running BW) Lower touchdown speed=less brakes needed and less chance of a ground loop. Setting trim to XX position only works on your plane as they are almost all rigged differently. Airspeeds and RPM are the same, we all vary and can vary VASTLY due to many things. The speed that XXXX RPM gives you on your airplane with your cruise prop on tiny tires with wheelpants will be vastly different than I get with big wheels and a climb prop.

You want real landing speeds, go to altitude and learn your plane. Drive it around at minimum controllable airspeed and really get a feel for it. I am not talking about a quick straight line run with full flaps and power to see where the stall is, I am talking spending some time driving it all around the sky in various banks, climbs and descents and really get the feel for your plane and what it will do or won't do. It is much better to know your speeds and feel at 2K feet versus learning them the hard way at 50'.

I think most would be shocked at what a short wing will do if you take the time to learn to really fly it.

 

[Tnathan]

Well if I recall the original question was from a guy putting a CFI in his tripacer and wanted to have a recipe to help not have surprises.

It’s good advice to say take it up and get a feel for what she will do. That honestly is where they should start. Go do some slow flight, stalls etc to get a feel for the plane. From little engines and big wheels to big engines and little wheels, not to mention different props, vgs, and wingtips. Different pacers can fly very differently.

I was more responding to the fact that everyone so far had had two notches of flaps and that seems counter productive if your goal is to reduce vsi, which was the original question. I get my technique leaves extra energy in the system which has pluses and minuses. Doing a power off three point at just over stall also has pluses and minuses. You mentioned the pluses but some of the negatives are: potentially big descent rate, loss of aileron control/pitch control, susceptibility to crosswinds=ground loops. I was kind of embarrassed with my technique which uses power because the old timers that taught me thought you should do every landing like an engine out. Power is a crutch. But I ran into a CFI that stepped up to flying a king air. I told him I like carrying power into ground effect. He said that’s how they taught him to fly the king air. The goal of the landing is to not wake up the paying customers. I have the same goal with my passengers. Seems to make sense to me to use what you have to get the result you want as long as you know what it’s costing you.

But, if I lost an engine, landing off airport or stuffing it in a back country unimproved short strip, I would throw in the flaps and slow the thing down for the reasons you mentioned. I prefer having a variety of tools in my bag.